[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

Isn't Scat in California??

Been a long while since I was reading about this stuff, I can't remember exactly which states had what but I think California was one of the states that don't allow "Made In USA" claims unless it's all manufactured in that state.

Yes they are. When the owner told me that story he also noted the Cat copying their product line should've been enforced by the same department that fined them.

[Cliff R]

I see labels that say "Built in the USA from domestic and globally sources materials", so at least they are assembling here, but are some of the components being used not as good as they could be?

Something else to ponder on. Just because it's made offshore, China, Brazil, Japan, Sweden, Germany, Italy, etc, doesn't mean that its an inferior product. Believe me those Countries and others have the capabilties of making parts just as good as we could do here........just not at the price point we are willing to pay for them...........

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

I see labels that say "Built in the USA from domestic and globally sources materials", so at least they are assembling here, but are some of the components being used not as good as they could be?

Something else to ponder on. Just because it's made offshore, China, Brazil, Japan, Sweden, Germany, Italy, etc, doesn't mean that its an inferior product. Believe me those Countries and others have the capabilties of making parts just as good as we could do here........just not at the price point we are willing to pay for them...........

I agree, but you know how the mentality is around here, if it's not USA it's junk, or, I'll only buy USA product. You hear that one a lot. LOL

Well those goofy laws that vary by state sure seem to leave a lot of grey area.


On the flip side there is a lot of junk out there too, we all know that.

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

I agree, but you know how the mentality is around here, if it's not USA it's junk, or, I'll only buy USA product. You hear that one a lot. LOL

Well those goofy laws that vary by state sure seem to leave a lot of grey area.


On the flip side there is a lot of junk out there too, we all know that.

A lot of the aircraft recip engine parts we used were made in Brazil (valves, valve springs, valve spring retainers, and valve keepers), Germany ( pistons and piston pins) and Great Britain( oil pump gears, rocker arm bushings, connecting rod bushings, connecting rod bolts…even SPS bolts, and engine bearings). ALL of these parts have to meet the OE specifications and pass an FAA inspection. ALL nations produce garbage as well as well made parts.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by hurryinhoosier62

A lot of the aircraft recip engine parts we used were made in Brazil (valves, valve springs, valve spring retainers, and valve keepers), Germany ( pistons and piston pins) and Great Britain( oil pump gears, rocker arm bushings, connecting rod bushings, connecting rod bolts…even SPS bolts, and engine bearings). ALL of these parts have to meet the OE specifications and pass an FAA inspection. ALL nations produce garbage as well as well made parts.

I agree with that. That's what I was getting at in Cliff's post. Just have to sort through it. Just because it's from a foreign country doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad part.
Australia makes some really nice products too. ICE ignition is one that comes to mind.

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

I see labels that say "Built in the USA from domestic and globally sources materials", so at least they are assembling here, but are some of the components being used not as good as they could be?

Something else to ponder on. Just because it's made offshore, China, Brazil, Japan, Sweden, Germany, Italy, etc, doesn't mean that its an inferior product. Believe me those Countries and others have the capabilties of making parts just as good as we could do here........just not at the price point we are willing to pay for them...........

Well stated, Cliff. Of the Cummins 6B and 6BT forgings we used to regrind some of the better ones were from Brazil. The best were from Great Britain and Germany. The worst? Mexico. U.S. and Japanese forging were on par with the Brazilian forgings.

[Cliff R]

"I agree, but you know how the mentality is around here, if it's not USA it's junk, or, I'll only buy USA product. You hear that one a lot. LOL"

There are a few things in this World that are a LOT better if you buy them from Sweden or Germany, etc.

Chainsaws are one of them, but when you say things like that there are so many brand loyalists out there that it just starts a bunch of bickering, almost as bad as if you told a Ford truck lover a Chevy was a lot better product....etc...etc....

[jhein]

It's definitely a global economy. Most Stihl products sold in the US are assembled here, but parts come from all over.

I have a Toyota Sequoia. I jokingly say it's not really a Japanese car, it's a cheap American knock off made in Indiana. LOL. And it probably has lots of parts from China.

[NeighborsComplaint]

Just curious as I'm unfamiliar the process but, why couldn't one have the lifters nitrided along with the camshaft?

[Formulajones]

I've been nitriding the flat tappet cams I've used but Comp never offered the service on their lifters last time I did it, so not sure. I have been using the EDM lifters though.

Next time I'm at Paul's I plan to ask him about his cryo treating to see if I can have the cam and lifters cryo treated as well. Thought about that with even the next roller I do.

[Jay S]

Nitriding lifters the thin layer of the nitriding will just flake off.

When a cam is nitrided and used with crappy soft metal lifters like what is being sold now by a lot of companies the cam and lifter hardness get’s too close together and the nitrided cam will surface will flake. Go a step put further with really really low hardness lifter, with the hardness of the lifter and cam almost being the same or softer, then the cam nitriding will flake, and will eat the lifter. (See Paul’s picture).

I

[P@blo]

Okay I spoke with the tech from Johnston lifters and he was nice to share some information with me/us.

They used to use a foundry in Chicago up to about 10 years ago. Then quality could not be maintained so they went out of the FT making business as nothing they could find in the USA was up to snuff quality wise. He indicated that the two main problems are:

1) During casting, on a casting tree, the face must cool first before the lifter. Adds costs and steps to the process.

2) Asicular carbides must be present at least 200 thou deep.

3) Lifter makers are only concerned with hardness which is a major problem when both the first two points above are not achieved.

With even HLJ lifters failing we may have lost the technology for good now actually. Anyone want to call HLJ and ask how they cool their lifter face and is their acicular cabides at least 200 thou deep?

Starting to wonder if made in the USA does not mean much anymore...

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by Jay S

Nitriding lifters the thin layer of the nitriding will just flake off.

When a cam is nitrided and used with crappy soft metal lifters like what is being sold now by a lot of companies the cam and lifter hardness get’s too close together and the nitrided cam will surface will flake. Go a step put further with really really low hardness lifter, with the hardness of the lifter and cam almost being the same or softer, then the cam nitriding will flake, and will eat the lifter. (See Paul’s picture).

I

If it’s done correctly, nitriding should never flake off. The problem I see with nitriding is it increases the diameter of the component being nitrided.

[Jay S]

Having Nitriding flake was only in regard to a cheap HFT lifter on a Nitrided HFT cam. Mostly because of the effect of the nitriding on the metallurgy of the cast cam core’s used for HFT cams and the softness of the lifters not wearing proper.

Nitriding on a SFT should not have near the issues with the tougher cores.

[mgarblik]

Seems like DLC type coating might be a possibility for lifters. These are the type questions I like to talk directly to the manufacturers at PRI about. We have had one bad lifter failure on the dyno in the last year. An almost stock Ford 260 V-8 for a Falcon. Low spring pressure. Killed 3 lifters anyway. All typical precautions followed. Cam break-in paste used. High zinc break-in oil, 90 lbs. seat pressure, engine pre-lubed. Still killed the lifters and cam in about 40 minutes running time. It's a complete crap shoot.

[Steve C.]

DLC coating gives lifters slick & hard surface properties.

https://www.calicocoatings.com/coati...xoCH9QQAvD_BwE

Comp Cams offers it on some of their tool steel SFT lifters.

And of interest, the internet is full of the DLC coating subject. Pros and cons....

https://www.speed-talk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=33940

https://classracer.com/classforum/sh...ad.php?t=75418

https://www.speed-talk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13263

.

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by Jay S

Having Nitriding flake was only in regard to a cheap HFT lifter on a Nitrided HFT cam. Mostly because of the effect of the nitriding on the metallurgy of the cast cam core’s used for HFT cams and the softness of the lifters not wearing proper.

Nitriding on a SFT should not have near the issues with the tougher cores.

You DO realize that nitriding is a chemical bonding of nitrogen atoms onto the surface of metal? In my experience, I have NEVER seen nitriding “flake” off anything. Hard chrome, yes.

[Jay S]

Originally Posted by hurryinhoosier62

You DO realize that nitriding is a chemical bonding of nitrogen atoms onto the surface of metal? In my experience, I have NEVER seen nitriding “flake” off anything. Hard chrome, yes.

I am sure you are correct on that. Maybe flaking maybe isn’t the best wording. Gulling might better description, all I can do here is try to describe what a nitrided cam looks like when it fails, and why it fails. Or why I think it fails.

The hard shell on the surface from Nitriding is 3 or 4 thousands thick with current Nitride process’s on cast cam cores. Below that thin thickness the Rockwell hardness drops below what the cast core was originally. I can’t remember how much, something like 15 c scale. The surface hardness goes up by 15 or 20, putting the hardness 50 or better, but below that surface it drops to 20s to 30s. For reference average core hardness of most cam core is suppose to be in the lower 40s. These days it is more in the mid 30s. Nitriding is great for cam break in, then eventually with use the shell gets thin and it pulls small chips off the surface because the metal under that surface is extremely soft. Then the lobe gets wiped. Most off the shelf cams are cast of Proferall. Often the lobes are a little narrower on off the shell hyd cams using the basic Proferall cores. Solid cams are usually Proferall+, a bit better cores, and slightly wider lobes. Multiple aspects to look at for better success on cams with nitriding. Personally I would not bother nitriding a typical off the shelf cam with out a least looking at the core used for the cam.

Nitrated cams with tool steel lifters is very common on flat tappet restricted racing, all racing categories. Some jump up to p55 cores, which do not seem to like nitriding. Most don’t have $ in the budget for the billet or tool steel flat tappet cams.

[Brentco]

The FTC enforces “Made in the USA” claims under its deceptive advertising laws. They apply to products sold anywhere in the United States. The rule is that "all or virtually all" of the parts and processing must be of U.S. origin. The product should contain no — or negligible — foreign content. Claiming “Made in the USA” for foreign lifters machined or assembled in the U.S. would certainly violate FTC regulations.

https://www.ftc.gov/business-guidanc...e-usa-standard

[P@blo]

Anything posted on a public forum is not going to be current by any stretch of the imagination.

Even Topline is a crapshoot along with your crappy roller lifters so it looks like we are all in the same boat. Welcome to the jungle gentlemen...