[MPKind]

Jay, an adjustable pushrod set at standard 0.050" increments was used to find the best valve tip pattern. The valve adjustment was set at 0.020" once the new pushrods were installed. Butler/Comp Hi-Torq HFT cam 230/236 was installed with the Rhoads lifters.

The noise these lifters make is noticeable. I don't mind at lower RPMs, but at cruising speeds, it's annoying. My understanding is that the lifters quiet down when they pump up and don't have time to bleed off as RPM increases. I can't hear any difference in the sound level at 1000 RPM vs. 3000 RPM. Do certain oils do a better job of decreasing the noise? Would increasing the adjustment from 0.020" to 0.030" have any effect on the sound they make at higher RPMs?

What's your method for checking/changing the adjustment once the engine has been running in the car? Do you prefer using a remote starter switch or rotating by hand to get a valve on base circle or a little of both? Just curious how someone with a lot of experience does this.

[Jay S]

Originally Posted by MPKind

Jay, an adjustable pushrod set at standard 0.050" increments was used to find the best valve tip pattern. The valve adjustment was set at 0.020" once the new pushrods were installed. Butler/Comp Hi-Torq HFT cam 230/236 was installed with the Rhoads lifters.

. The noise these lifters make is noticeable. I don't mind at lower RPMs, but at cruising speeds, it's annoying. My understanding is that the lifters quiet down when they pump up and don't have time to bleed off as RPM increases. I can't hear any difference in the sound level at 1000 RPM vs. 3000 RPM. Do certain oils do a better job of decreasing the noise? Would increasing the adjustment from 0.020" to 0.030" have any effect on the sound they make at higher RPMs?

What's your method for checking/changing the adjustment once the engine has been running in the car? Do you prefer using a remote starter switch or rotating by hand to get a valve on base circle or a little of both? Just curious how someone with a lot of experience does this.

We use 10w40 or 15w40 with Rhoads. It sounds like you need to tighten up the lash a lot. Keep in mind there is hot expansion added to the lash once the engine is hot. If it is sounding like the lifters have some action yet and make noise at 3000 it is likely the hot lash is to much. They can do that clear to 4000 if you give them a lot of lash, even can go a little beyond that. I have set the Vmax at .040” before, probably .046” once hot, they were very loud.

That Bulter cam has aggressive profiles, it has Extreme energy profiles on the intake lobes and a less aggressive magnum profiles on the exhaust. Those cam profiles can make a lot of valve terrain noise even with regular lifters. If it was mine I would set them cold and tighten up the lash to .008” with iron heads, and .004” lash on Aluminum heads. Then you would end up with around .010” lash once hot. The biggest gains in performance and vacuum with V series lifters are with tighter lash settings, after the hot lash is much over .010” (maybe even less with that cam) all the Rhoads lifters really do it make more noise.

You are also likely not going to want to run the lash the same on the intakes and exhaust. I would keep tightening the lash up on both valves until your content with the balance of noise, low end vacuum and power. To make the valve terrain quitest, run the exhaust as tight as possible, and if you need more action from the Rhoads with less noise adjust intake lash wider, keeping the exh tight.

For cranking the engine over, I think I have used about all the methods possible, from doing them individually by rotating the crank, using a remote start switch, and even finding top dead center, adjusting 8, then rotating in 180* and adjusting the other 8. We have even set them while the engine was running and just went by the turns from where the plunger was bottomed out. The tighter you set the lash, the more reason to set them individually manually cranking the engine to make sure they totally bleed down.

[MPKind]

Jay. That’s some great information. I’ve re-read your post a few times. When you refer to “lash” with these V series lifters, it’s setting the max plunger travel from the bottom up. Right? Rhoads uses the term “adjustment” in their documents. They suggested 0.020” for street but in a general sense not knowing the cam profile. Ok. So with this cam I can tighten up to 0.008” on the intake and less on the exhaust? Say 0.004”? So the exhaust behaves like a solid lifter?

So the more plunger action the noisier they get. Rhoads sez that a bigger lash at 0.030 provides better idle. I suppose that’s true but it’s also noisier. What isn’t happening in my case is a full pump up to the point where they quiet

Next step is to change oil to see if that has any affect.

I have more questions but I’ll save those for tomorrow.

[Jay S]

Originally Posted by MPKind

Jay. That’s some great information. I’ve re-read your post a few times. When you refer to “lash” with these V series lifters, it’s setting the max plunger travel from the bottom up. Right? Rhoads uses the term “adjustment” in their documents. They suggested 0.020” for street but in a general sense not knowing the cam profile. Ok. So with this cam I can tighten up to 0.008” on the intake and less on the exhaust? Say 0.004”? So the exhaust behaves like a solid lifter?

So the more plunger action the noisier they get. Rhoads sez that a bigger lash at 0.030 provides better idle. I suppose that’s true but it’s also noisier. What isn’t happening in my case is a full pump up to the point where they quiet

Next step is to change oil to see if that has any affect.

I have more questions but I’ll save those for tomorrow.

I call it lash because I am a mechanical cam guy, maybe clearence is a less confusing description when following the instructions. With the plunger bottomed out you measure the distance (clearance) the plunger can move with a feeler gauge, it is like checking lash on a mechanical cam.

I was not referring to .008” for the intakes and setting .004” for the exhaust. Maybe I miss wrote the other post. I don’t know what your over all set up is, so I was intending to suggest for that aggressive cam start at .008” on both intakes and exhausts if you have iron heads, or .004” on both valves if you have Aluminum heads. Then if you desire more action from the lifters increase the adjustment on the intakes only, My reference to .004” was for if your engine has Aluminum heads. But yes you can set the exhaust to .004” and the intakes to .008”. If you want you can even bottom the plunger out so there is zero clearance cold, then it acts like a mechanical lifter. At .004” clearence set cold (with iron heads) once the engine warms up the V series lifters still gain around an 1” of vacuum over a normal lifter at idle. At .020” clearance the vacuum increase over a regular lifter is around 2.5” to 3”. At .030” they probably only gain .25” more vacuum than when set at .020”. They progressively do less as the clearence is increased.

[Formulas]

I have never understood the Vmax gig, Why choose a lifter that bleeds down so you get the smaller cam effect but then reduce plunger travel to reduce noise ? seems counter productive as to why use the lifter to start with because the ability to effect low speed duration is lessened the closer the lifter plunger is to bottoming out in the lifter body
Not picking on anybody just trying to make sense of it all i don't believe this is the first post on this issue.

I like and have used a few sets of regular Rhoads lifters

[Jay S]

If you know what the cam profile looks like (can measure this when a cam is installed) a good general rule for the street is to not set the V series plunger clearance so they operate looser (once the engine is hot) than where the tappet lift of the cam has 1* per .001” of tappet lift on the closing side of the cam. To find that, multiply that tappet lift by the rocker ratio for the max hot clearance. Generally that is the most clearance (hot) that a V series lifter is able to operate well on for the street. It is the quietest operation for the profiles performance gains with V series lifters. Going beyond that is also excessively hard the valve terrain.

I don’t use the Rhoad’s instruction blanket numbers for clearance, because the profile does make a large difference in how the lifters perform.

For a Compcams XE profile, it hit that acceleration at .006” tappet lift. All these cams have the close to the same acceleration at the clearances.

.006” X 1.65 = .0099”

On the exhaust with the magnum profile the same tappet acceleration is at about .007”

.007” X 1.65 = .0115”

For a Melling SPC-8, It hits that tappet acceleration at .009”
.009” X 1.65 = .0148”

For a Crower 60919, it has gentler ramps yet, it hit that same acceleration at .011”. Nearly twice as gentle ramp as an XE.

.011” X 1.65 = .0185”

For racing purposes it is fine to set the clearance higher than those numbers. But for the street, the valve seats and guides get beat up excessively if running more clearance than those clearence numbers.

[Jay S]

Originally Posted by Formulas

I have never understood the Vmax gig, Why choose a lifter that bleeds down so you get the smaller cam effect but then reduce plunger travel to reduce noise ? seems counter productive as to why use the lifter to start with because the ability to effect low speed duration is lessened the closer the lifter plunger is to bottoming out in the lifter body
Not picking on anybody just trying to make sense of it all i don't believe this is the first post on this issue.

I like and have used a few sets of regular Rhoads lifters

The V series lifter has a lot of advantages, it doesn’t collapse like all the other hydraulic lifters when the engine gets to peak power. The regular Rhoad’s lifters will get beat on top end power by a regular lifter because they collapse and loose extra duration, that is even against a standard lifter. A V series will out perform both, it can be a lot depending on what the cam profile it and how many RPM it turns. It is just the nature of the way the originals bleed down. There is nothing you can do to change it unless you want to bottom the plunger of the original type lifter out and set them up similar to a V series. The problem with that though is if you happen to float the valves the lifters completely loose control of the valves. The V series has better valve terrain control, and is more tunable.

[Jay S]

I am not sure if an original Rhoad’s could have the clearance set as tight as I have set the V series. Less than .020” clearance from the bottom of travel and there may be issues with oil getting fed up into the pushrods on an original lifter. I don’t know anyway, I have never tried that. The v series have a shim to raise the plunger off the bottom of travel.

[Formulas]

Jay you made the case to use lifter A over B .. What i am stuck on is you have a Vmax but don't like the noise so you (rig) the plunger deeper in the body to reduce noise. That's the direction i have seen in a few posts and seems to me to defeat the big reason in using them by losing / decreasing the bottom end torque improvement, Maybe they didn't have the plunger in the right zone to start with... carry on

[MPKind]

Originally Posted by Jay S

We use 10w40 or 15w40 with Rhoads. It sounds like you need to tighten up the lash a lot. Keep in mind there is hot expansion added to the lash once the engine is hot.

If it was mine I would set them cold and tighten up the lash to .008” with iron heads, then you would end up with around .010” lash once hot. The biggest gains in performance and vacuum with V series lifters are with tighter lash settings, after the hot lash is much over .010” (maybe even less with that cam) all the Rhoads lifters really do it make more noise.

You are also likely not going to want to run the lash the same on the intakes and exhaust. I would keep tightening the lash up on both valves until your content with the balance of noise, low end vacuum and power. To make the valve terrain quietest, run the exhaust as tight as possible, and if you need more action from the Rhoads with less noise adjust intake lash wider, keeping the exh tight.

For cranking the engine over, I think I have used about all the methods possible, from doing them individually by rotating the crank, using a remote start switch, and even finding top dead center, adjusting 8, then rotating in 180* and adjusting the other 8. We have even set them while the engine was running and just went by the turns from where the plunger was bottomed out. The tighter you set the lash, the more reason to set them individually manually cranking the engine to make sure they totally bleed down.

Oil: I will take your advice on oil weight. The 10w40 has several to choose from, the 15w40 appears to be marketed mainly to Diesel engines, right? Can you point to a couple preferred products in either wt?

Lash: I get the interchange of lingo. I'm not an engine builder, just an engineer that wishes he had more hands on experience with this stuff. I try to seek professional knowledge from those with a lot of experience and success. So taking the cam profile into account, the intake lash can be set to less than 0.010". Providing that intake and exhaust can be set independently, are you implying that exhaust lash should be tighter than the intake (based on the cam profile)? In a couple posts now you're indicating that exhaust could be set to near zero cold. I was guessing 0.004" as a starting point setting for the exhaust in my previous post, not referring to the aluminum head setting. My 455 has 6X-8 heads. Setting the lash looser than 0.010" makes more noise with minimal gains? Can't disagree.

Adjustment: Getting the cam on base circle isn't an issue, but I'm unsure how you determine when the lifter has fully bled out. AS you wrote, manually turning the engine seems like the best way to compress the oil out without introducing oil back into the chamber, which seems possible even at starter RPMs.

[Jay S]

Originally Posted by Formulas

Jay you made the case to use lifter A over B .. What i am stuck on is you have a Vmax but don't like the noise so you (rig) the plunger deeper in the body to reduce noise. That's the direction i have seen in a few posts and seems to me to defeat the big reason in using them by losing / decreasing the bottom end torque improvement, Maybe they didn't have the plunger in the right zone to start with... carry on

I can see why you would think that when I talk about running the lash or clearance ultra tight where the Rhoads are not doing much of anything. That is more for the exhaust side where someone wants a hot for the teacher type idle.

My main goal when I set V series lifters is to make them quiet and have nearly full action, adapt how each is set for the specific cam, make them operate pretty quietly and still have 90% of the actual action an original Rhoads does. More or less remove low RPM seat timing. Depending on the cam design, a Vseries can even have more action than a regular Rhoads and less noise. Rhoads lifters on an old RA4 profile act different than on a Comp Extreme energy cam. The original Rhoads are a one size fits all design. Which is honestly fine if you have a certain profile that works and you don’t mind the sowing machine noise Rhoad’s lifters make.

[Formulas]

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/BPO-71586

You may be able to buy locally for better price i dunno

[Jay S]

Originally Posted by MPKind

Oil: I will take your advice on oil weight. The 10w40 has several to choose from, the 15w40 appears to be marketed mainly to Diesel engines, right? Can you point to a couple preferred products in either wt?

Lash: I get the interchange of lingo. I'm not an engine builder, just an engineer that wishes he had more hands on experience with this stuff. I try to seek professional knowledge from those with a lot of experience and success. So taking the cam profile into account, the intake lash can be set to less than 0.010". Providing that intake and exhaust can be set independently, are you implying that exhaust lash should be tighter than the intake (based on the cam profile)? In a couple posts now you're indicating that exhaust could be set to near zero cold. I was guessing 0.004" as a starting point setting for the exhaust in my previous post, not referring to the aluminum head setting. My 455 has 6X-8 heads. Setting the lash looser than 0.010" makes more noise with minimal gains? Can't disagree.

Adjustment: Getting the cam on base circle isn't an issue, but I'm unsure how you determine when the lifter has fully bled out. AS you wrote, manually turning the engine seems like the best way to compress the oil out without introducing oil back into the chamber, which seems possible even at starter RPMs.

The Penngrade in Formula’s the link would be good. Driven GP1 15w40 is usually what I use, neither one is a diesel oil. There are some Diesel oils that work ok, most have a lot of extra detergents in them though. If you set the clearance tighter 10w30 should be fine with a Vpro. If you want to run a lot of clearance the thicker oil helps noise some.

Using something that has a little leverage to help push the plunger down makes it easier to bottom the plunger out. Then you can more gently push until it the plunger bottoms. Set the clearance, push on it one more time after it is set, and check it again. Watch for valve movement when the feeler guage is removed to make sure the feeler gauge is not holding the valve open.

[MPKind]

Jay. I picked up the car last weekend and it still had some harmonics. I was told the fan clutch had leaked out while stored in the trunk so I knew I was going to replace it. I noticed it was spinning off-center at idle and the flanges on these new aftermarket ones are slotted (not drilled out). The new clutch had a brass bushing to properly index it to the water pump. So once installed that took care of the last of the harmonics. I don't ever recall seeing a bushing on that interface. No clue when the first clutch went in years ago either. This was never the major vibration source, but it did add to it.

However, the engine still has a buzz to it, not smooth...you can feel it whether accelerating driving or just taching it up slowly out of gear. Like there's some imbalance but it's constant. No pulsing. My first thought was it ws those lifters. I knew adjusting them would change the sound they make, but I couldn't make any connection with adjusting them and making the "buzz" go away until I was talking to an old time mechanic at a car show today.

Where our conversation went was that if 1 or more lifters within the intake or exhaust group were adjusted slightly unlike the others, you'd get different valve timing within that group of 8, which would lead to different cylinder pressures within that group. Different cylinder pressures alone (from wear) would have its own symptoms, but when you add in the valve timing, I think it would create a constant uneven pattern and create a slight constant vibration. What do you think, sounds very possible. I would try to be as accurate as possible when adjusting and have a minimal tolerance in the lash between cylinders for that reason. The more aligned the lash is among the 8 the smoother the engine will run. Not sure how many thousandths difference from one to the next would start to reveal symptoms, but given you're working in 0.001" precision, it wouldn't surprise me to learn it should be zero. All exactly the same.

So I'm a little reluctant to do this myself, but my understanding is that if you tighten all of the lifters down to zero, they act like your typical HFT lifter, you're just removing the low RPM variability. A guy could do that as a test to check the smoothness of the engine in a range of RPMs.

Do you use a dial gauge on each valve tip to improve accuracy when adjusting or can you eyeball it? If you're tightening to 0.08" I would think so, but I don't know for sure until I try myself. Tighten with desired gauge until valve just cracks open and then back off to close position with some resistance on the gauge when removing. You're recommending 0.08" on intake and how much on exhaust? Nothing wrong with the "Hot for Teacher" sound, but from your earlier thoughts, that's likely going to happen anyway given the exhaust would be tightened to less than 0.08".

[Jay S]

With the cam you have I would start at .008” cold clearance. You can go tighter if you want, probably go tighter on the exhaust first. That cam should have good vacuum and low end power even with the clearance ultra tight.

I am not sure what you’re describing as a buzz and not smooth. That may be something not related to the valve terrain. Some people compare the noise Rhoad’s make to a mechanical lifter sound. I describe their noise as a sowing machine sound, like 16 small sowing machines. Maybe it is possible, but I have never noticed that an engine ran rough even if a couple of the clearances were too loose from setting them poorly. You don’t need to be overly worried about getting the clearance dead on exact. With in a few thousands won’t change things much. They all pump up at slightly different rates and have a little different blead rate between each lifter. Most people set them when first installed and never even look at them again. Normal lifters bleed rates are generally not super consistent either. These days consistent bleed rates on a standard HFT lifters is almost a comical thought.

The sowing machine from Vpro Rhoads always goes away once they pump up. The tighter they are set the sooner they pump up.

[MPKind]

I'm trying to describe what I "feel" as the engine spins faster or pulls hard. It's a constant vibration that increases some with RPM and load. Similar to the harmonics from the bad flywheel and fan, but this is constant and not as intense. The engine doesn't have a smooth feeling like one would expect. I know it's not a watch, or some old Pontiac straight eight, but I think it should run smoother when cruising or pulling hard.

What I hear could be connected to what I feel. The lifters should quiet down at cruising speeds (2500 - 3000), but they don't...not enough to notice.

I researched more information on general theory about valve timing and how it can change a way an engine "feels". Nice and smooth or rough. The bleed down variability between lifters makes sense, but if half the intake or exhaust lifter settings are a couple thousandths different then the target setting, could that affect performance and make the engine "feel" rougher? If it's just 1 or 2, probably nothing, but if it's several, that would compound the effects.

I trust my engine guy, but he's never worked with Rhoads lifters. It's worth taking a another look at them and also tighten them down to fit the cam better.

[MPKind]

Jay.

I went after the lifter adjustment Sunday. There was a learning curve to get a feel for when the valve just starts to open. I can see it, but the way the wrench stops at the point of lift starting, with a light touch after the plunger is bottomed out, seems to be consistent with each valve. Making some kind of lever to bleed the lifters thoroughly was time consuming. Some things I tried worked OK, other not so much. Finally found something in the toolbox I didn't think of that worked great. What I found was that I could bleed it down, but some lifters needed to be hit again, is that what you experience? Like it sucks some oil back in. I set the intakes to 0.008" and the exhaust as tight as I could, effectively at ZERO. Considered 0.003". I didn't complete the process, so if there's a reason not to set at ZERO, let me know. I can go through again. Good learning experience.

Crossing my fingers this tighter setting and going thru all of them again for consistency eliminates that constant vibration I feel. Could be from other things too. It's RPM related, not driveshaft or axle related.

Other things I've read that can cause a "constant" vibration are

Cooling fan - running a late 60s 7 aluminum blade. Good condition, but worth checking again.
Bellhousing alignment - matching GM bellhousing and gearbox from the same parts car. Pilot bearing showed no sign of unusual wear.
Cylinder miss or weak spark - hard to tell, but it's possible
Transmission rear mount - had an original 60s rubber mount, switched to a new rubber mount last year. The new one seemed to amplify the vibrations. Could put the old one back on and see if there's a difference.

[Jay S]

I always go thru and set them twice. It is not unusual to find a couple that need set a little tighter on the second check.

From the description of how the engine feels uneven could the engine want more ignition timing? Do you have the timing pulled out some to break it in?

[MPKind]

I’m not in a hurry so I will go around a second time. Should go faster without the bleed procedure to deal with. Still not totally pleased with the bleed down lever tool process but it works. I looked for a second and didn’t see anything I could buy so that’s that. Could make one or take and old claw hammer and modify it. What do you use or make to bleed them. They’re tough!

Set the total timing at 34d. I haven’t heard of retarding the timing a tad during break in. What the reason for that? Just easier on the cam?

Compression baseline will get done once the lifters are done. Also a check for healthy spark at all cylinders.

[Jay S]

From the description is seems like you did a thorough job setting the clearance. It isn’t really necessary to go over them again. If I took my time I could get it first go around.

I do a lot of high compression pump gas street builds. I often work my way up to full timing.

It probably isn’t the timing. Just thought I would ask. The last adjustable timing light (Summit) I bought set the timing 15* retarded from actual. It made the engine feel uneven. Sometimes dampener rings slip to.