[tempest1964]

Is it possible that the oil pan baffle is rattling?

[steve25]

Once you posted the photos my thoughts went to the same possible issue as stated in post 20 that the Cam retention plate might be loose.

You should check this possibility out before you fire the motor again because the Cam moving forward and back too much will shorten the life of the lifters and Cam lobe’s.

[sdbob]

Good luck, hope you find this problem.

[HWYSTR455]

I was going to guess fuel pump eccentric, loose/damaged. It looks pretty worn, you may want to pop the cover.

If it's loose, the tab can slip out of pocket and drag, pop could be it coming out of the pocket.


.

[Joe's Garage]

You've eliminated the easy stuff, so dig on in.

Just pull the timing cover off and you should (hopefully) know EXACTLY what the noise is.

Agree with Steve25 that you should not run the engine any more until you rule out that the cam retaining plate has gotten loose. Don't kill your cam and lifters.

It's gonna take you a couple hours and then you'll know if the engine needs to come out or not. Fingers crossed for you.

Less damage = better.

[chiphead]

Spent the last couple of nights pulling the front cover off to get at the timing chain assembly.

The fuel pump eccentric was in place, but high miles and worn. It will be replaced. The cam timing gear bolt was tight, and the retaining plate bolts were tight. I loosened all the rockers to check the endplay before I loosened any of the cam bolts. Not much endplay, hmmmm, the clue phone is ringing.....

Looks like I've got insufficient camshaft endplay. There is a groove worn into the factory retaining plate. I re-used this plate when I slapped the cam in there, but I know I wouldn't have reused a plate with that much wear. The front of the cam shows some metal transfer from the plate. The snout on the cam gear measures .126-.127" and the plate is about .123-.125" depending on how you measure it. So I'm guessing it was on the tight side of spec? What is allowable camshaft endplay?

I'm not saying this is is THE problem, but it's for sure A problem. Can I clean up the cam snout with 400 grit?

I've got new plate, eccentric and bolts coming from Butler. What else do I need to check while I'm in there?

[dataway]

Is it normal for there to be that much forward thrust on the camshaft? Possible it wasn't getting oil?

[Joe's Garage]

Originally Posted by dataway

Is it normal for there to be that much forward thrust on the camshaft? Possible it wasn't getting oil?

My thoughts exactly. That looks a LOT like it's been run dry.

If that was my motor, I'd pull the distributor and use a priming tool and see HOW MUCH oil you get pumped out around the camshaft and that front bearing.

I suspect that you're gonna have to dig in all the way to fix whatever has caused that wear.

Question: How much fore and aft play is there in the camshaft if you re-install the retainer temporarily??

[tstroud]

Could the cam bore block plug be driven in too deep pushing the cam forward?

[steve25]

The rear cam plug can only go in so deep because it stops on a intentional lip machined into the cam tunnel, but this does not mean that when that cam plug was drivin in that it did not mushroom some in its center area.

This would happen if it was driven in with too small of a socket.

Maybe that cam retention plate was installed the wrong way and was blocking off 1/2 of that oil feed hole slot , that is if it’s possible to flip that top to bottom.?

[OG68]

I found cracks on my full length tray near the area where it was attached to the #2 main cap.

[mgarblik]

On the full length windage trays, the cracks can be anywhere, honestly. But the most common areas are: Where the tray attaches to the #2 and #4 main cap. There is a steel plate spot welded to the tray where the bolts go through. Cracks often radiate outward from the welds and where the pan is bolted. Second area is on the side of the pan where the slots are punched in the tray for oil drainage. Cracks start in the corners of the punched windows and move toward the outside edges. Very much the way a windshield cracks from a rock chip for example. I don't believe the 4/5 short trays have any of these problems because they are thicker material. Possibly a better material as well.

[mgarblik]

I am sorry to mention this now. But did you look at the flex plate/torque converter to see if the bolts were loose, or the flex plate cracked? Either can make noise that mimics a fuel pump or other noise from the front of the engine. It doesn't make sense, but it can. I say this because you said the AT line pressure was excessively high and the noise starts after 15-30 seconds. This is the approximate time it takes the trans pressure to build as well as engine oil pressure. Before you possibly take the engine out, take the converter cover off and check the bolts. Also get your camera up in there and look at the flex plate bolts. When the plate cracks, it will usually leave a rust trail, radiating from the bolt holes. Give that area a look before going too far into the engine.

[OG68]

X2.
I had an unusual noise from the front of my '07 Cadillac. Most noticeable whenever the AC compressor was pumping. Dealership replaced the compressor but discovered that wasn't the cause. A senior mechanic, "the old guy", as my service advisor put it, opened up the inspection cover and discovered a cracked flex plate. Evidently the compressor put a slight load on the crankshaft to enhance the noise.

[steve25]

I gotta sadly say that from look of all the metal removed from the front of your Cam that I doubt that just a new Cam retention plate is going to anything for you .

[chiphead]

If you're talking about the 45* bevel on the OD face of the front cam journal, it came from Summit like that. I've got another 2802 in a box I can compare it to.

Would a windage tray have to be very broken to make this much noise? I should be able to see a badly split windage tray with the camera.

Is is possible to remove the flexplate without pulling the trans? One reason I got a good deal on this car is the converter was loose when I bought it. The knocking sounded bad, but cinching the 3 converter bolts fixed it. Its entirely possible the flexplate is wasted and I didn't catch it.

[steve25]

How deep is that groove in that plate?
It’s hard to tell exactly from your photo, but that metal went somewhere !

[chiphead]

Groove is 1 to 3 thou deep. I assume it's been self-clearancing. I dropped the oil and there is fine metal in the oil. Filter pleats show the same but no hunks.

I took a good look at the flexplate and its suspect. Reinforcing ring is missing. There are strange gouges near the bolts, but I can't tell if they are cracks or where some moron went after the flexplate bolts with a chisel.

Will a cracked flexplate make noise if I disconnect the converter? If I can prove its the flexplate, that's a good excuse to swap in the 10" Continental sitting on the shelf!

My plan is to fix the front of the engine, then dig into the back of the engine. Anybody got a lower radiator hose PN for a '67 GTO?

[72LuxuryLeMansLa.]

I would just pull the engine and tear it down. Find all of the issues out in the open instead of crawling around and under the car for days.

[chiphead]

Yeah, I know. I'm just trying to stretch this engine's lifespan. I know it's long in the tooth and deserves to be put out to pasture as a future builder. I'd like to do that before it comes completely unglued, LOL.

I've got a 4" stroker combo on the stand that needs a few things to finish. The plan is to sort the car and then swap the engine. I'm pretty close to sorting the car out, I need this 400 to last just a bit longer. One of those things is swapping the converter and proving the Conti and this TH400 are happy, prior to swapping the engine in front of that combination. I'd really like to get this 4" combo on an engine dyno prior to install to be sure it's happy.