[cgeise]

Wow -- 13k in machine work --sounds like there was a lot of --on the job training going on at your expense -- Look, a turbo engine is no harder build than any other engine - But it does take experience on knowing what tolerances to shoot for ect. For that kind of money id be asking for a very detailed invoice, was BES charging for fixing crap that was supplied to them ?? I dont think I have much more than that in my engine - including the parts - good luck

[RAIV-Z]

Originally Posted by cgeise

Wow -- 13k in machine work --sounds like there was a lot of --on the job training going on at your expense -- Look, a turbo engine is no harder build than any other engine - But it does take experience on knowing what tolerances to shoot for ect. For that kind of money id be asking for a very detailed invoice, was BES charging for fixing crap that was supplied to them ?? I dont think I have much more than that in my engine - including the parts - good luck

~13K, Yes, I was very surprised as well.

I have asked both Lynn and Tony for detailed invoices. Tony said I was not his customer and I should talk to Lynn. I asked Lynn for them long ago, havent seen them yet.

Below is some of the information I received from Lynn. There were specific $ charges for each line item. You’ll note that some of individual line items are also duplicated under item 16. Item 15 was also charged at the wrong hourly rate. This engine build was started before BES increased their hourly rates in August 2011 “from $65 to $74”. I was told the $65 rate would be honored. Not sure why line item 15 was charged at $79 per hour, this was work that was done well before August 2011.

1. CNC RA-V Head Porting
2. Intake Porting
3. male flair bosses inst
4. Head Labor RAV Head Assembly
5. Head Labor CNC Combustion Chamber
6. Head Labor Alternate Intake Valve Spacing
7. Head Labor Weld and Retap Intake Rocker Studs
8. Head Labor Final Mill Heads 81cc
9. Block Labor Dipstick Install
10. Assembly Install 2 Oil Bungs in Oil Pan for Turbo Drains
11. Assembly Labor Cut Rocker Arms To Fit
12. Assembly Labor Modify Lifter Oiling
13. Assembly Labor Modify Oil Filter Bracket
14. Labor to install Qty2 12AN bungs in Oil Pan for Evac
15. BES Block Labor 30Hrs
drill block for water, pressure test block, debburr tap holes, bak and shot blast block, cut caps and align hone block, deck block, hone block with plate, check cam tunnel, deburr clean block, install cam bearings, paint block install freeze plugs, fit rings, fit rods, pistons and pistons, rind and polis oil slots in crank shaft, mic, chamfer, polis and debur crankshaft, straighten cam shaft-bent .008, turn rear camshaft journall .002 to fit in block, chamber polis cam shaft.

16. BES Labor 82hrs
scribe bore size on heads, pressure test heads 3 times, weld up hole and redrill, smooth out weld, resurface heads, pressure test heads, check guide press, radius guiedes, cut down guide area, install guides, ream and hone guides, cut oout intake and exaust bowls for seats, intsall seats, pressure test heads.
mock up intake and drill for special push rod tubes, cut down rocker pads, cut heads to fit lifter valley tray, mill heads, weld up water holes in deck-in the wrong spot, make intake gaskets, check radial valve clearance, mock up intake, install bungs, make fuel rails, mount rails, remachine rocker bolt holes and lifter tube holes, redo rocker stud holes, mill point .080 to fit, dill pin intake, install tubes in heads, mill intake face of heads, ream bolt holes .530 and hand fit bolts holes, ground hole into oil passage, grind out holes in end of heads and weld, pressure test heads, remill intake face to clean up, spot face 2 bolts holes on two heads to clear spring with nuts, fit guide plates and weld up, fit guide plats and weld, final mill heads to 81ccs and deburr, make crank shaft scraper, fit rings. assemble crank rods pistons, install front cover, install oil pan, modifiey lifters for better oiling assemble heads, vacuum test valve job, install heads, set lash and prime engine, install lifter valley tray, modify oil filter adapter to fit block, slot valve cover hole to fit heads, install intake and fuel rails, weld up by pass and cross over to front cover, assemble engine and prme.

[pastry_chef]

straighten cam shaft-bent .008


WOW
I wonder WHO the manufacturer was...

[RAIV-Z]

Originally Posted by pastry_chef

straighten cam shaft-bent .008


WOW
I wonder WHO the manufacturer was...

The cam was purchased from LSM.

[johnta1]

16. BES Labor 82hrs
scribe bore size on heads, pressure test heads 3 times, weld up hole and redrill, smooth out weld, resurface heads, pressure test heads, check guide press, radius guiedes, cut down guide area, install guides, ream and hone guides, cut oout intake and exaust bowls for seats, intsall seats, pressure test heads.
mock up intake and drill for special push rod tubes, cut down rocker pads, cut heads to fit lifter valley tray, mill heads, weld up water holes in deck-in the wrong spot, make intake gaskets, check radial valve clearance, mock up intake, install bungs, make fuel rails, mount rails, remachine rocker bolt holes and lifter tube holes, redo rocker stud holes, mill point .080 to fit, dill pin intake, install tubes in heads, mill intake face of heads, ream bolt holes .530 and hand fit bolts holes, ground hole into oil passage, grind out holes in end of heads and weld, pressure test heads, remill intake face to clean up, spot face 2 bolts holes on two heads to clear spring with nuts, fit guide plates and weld up, fit guide plats and weld, final mill heads to 81ccs and deburr, make crank shaft scraper, fit rings. assemble crank rods pistons, install front cover, install oil pan, modifiey lifters for better oiling assemble heads, vacuum test valve job, install heads, set lash and prime engine, install lifter valley tray, modify oil filter adapter to fit block, slot valve cover hole to fit heads, install intake and fuel rails, weld up by pass and cross over to front cover, assemble engine and prme.

It was ready to fire and no running the engine?

Why are you tearing it done?

[RAIV-Z]

Originally Posted by johnta1

It was ready to fire and no running the engine?

Why are you tearing it done?

The engine was run normally aspirated with a carburetor on the dyno. The pictures posted previously shows why everything needs to be at least checked. Also, the first blueprint sheet indicated the rings were gapped at .015 and .020, the updated sheet indicates they are .028 and .038.

[NHRASuperStock455SD]

I do not wish to engage Ed Page in this response.

These are all countless examples of Ed Page misrepresenting the facts. Please know that he bought a street engine that was going to make power by virtue of the turbos. Ed now wants a race engine with race components.

Ed's pictures showing the valve cover are his attempt to "rebuild" this engine not according to the original agreed upon design. The pictures only show his lack of abilities and nothing else with regard to header installation. He also is trying to install valve covers that were never intended to go on this engine from the start. (see pictures).

This engine was built by multiple Engine Masters Tournament champion Tony Bischoff of BES racing engines. It performed on the dyno remarkably without failure. Tony has proven himself to Super Stock, Stock, NMCA winning racers in the Pontiac community. Tony completely disassembled the engine after dyno for a complete inspection and everything checked out fine.

It became clear towards the end that Ed decided he wanted something different from what he ordered. He tried to change things after it was too late. Largely these were ideas obtained from the internet public who did not know the facts of the original design and build. It was changed from street engine to race engine. We tried to accomodate Ed's changes where possible which severely affected his end cost.

Ed continues to "redo" this engine for not what was originally contracted. His misrepresentation of the facts are somewhat astounding, but mostly hyperbole and twisted facts to promote his agenda.

My contractors are respected contractors of the community and have done countless projects successfully. We cannot turn an engine into something that was not designed in the beginning. If Ed installed this engine and ran it, it would be fine. He is simply too afraid to run it.

His pictures of header installation only prove that he has no idea how to install headers. It took me only about 10 minutes to install them, however we installed them with OEM valve covers that were modified specially to fit Ed's engine. The valve covers that Ed is showing in his photos are not the same valve covers.

I am attaching photos of the engine with the valve covers and headers that we installed. Ed has disassembled the engine. Please know that all items due to his disassemble are suspect.

This was a great engine that outperformed most other turbo engines of a more RACE character as a street engine. With Ed's tampering we cannot be sure what is good craftmanship remains. I ask repeatly ask Ed to stop with doctored, highlighted & magnified pictures and other misrepresentations.

It is this ad nauseum of misrepresentation of the truth that prevents my comments for any useful conclusion. As an example, I was at Norwalk showing my product Saturday and Sunday. It is a perfect example of how Ed tries to misconstrue the facts to promote his agenda. Ed will never be satisfied, and there are far too many misrepresentations to address them all.

I just got my 455SD engine from Tony at BES watch for us this fall. The header guy is redoing my headers this fall and continuing to do a remarkable job with headers going forward.

[NHRASuperStock455SD]

engine with dyno street headers installed.

[cgeise]

I dont care what you want to call it - but just because something may see some street time DOES NOT make it a street engine - anytime you start talking 1200---1400 or 1600 hp - or more - Its a damn racing engine - driven on the street. And yes things do change, the stock valve covers prob did work with those low buck POS rockers you were going to put on, and the headers cleared those -- - now substitute what should have been there from the begining and bingo - clearance issues. At the very least you should have recomended the very best in every aspect of this build --seeing what was in the bottom end -- IA BLOCK - BILLET CRANK AND RODS -- ECT ECT - to recommend those rockes was wrong - If a customer declines the higher priced stuff - it is what it is. I suspect what happened was - and this is just my opinion -- The build prob got so far out of the original quote/ estimate due to all the redo of stuff not right or not ready for release that all of a sudden there was a need to find ways to cut cost - and the customer suffers. And I do agree - the owner prob doesnt have a lot of expertise or knowlage about some of this stuff - even more reason for the builder to "do the right thing". As far as you disputing some of the "evidence" in the pictures shown on the thread - wtf - do you think he made stuff up just to give you a hard time - he wanted this to work more than you did - He paid a butt load of money for this head ache - and you were glad to take it. Bottom line - if it looks like a duck - quacks like a duck - and even smells like a duck -- ITS A F****NG DUCK.

[jerzfabguy]

allow me to join in the conversation if you will... i am "the indy cartel" and owner of the shop that has been building lynn's headers for about 2 years now. i would love to get on here and go "jersey shore" on this guy but im certain it will be used against me at some point so i am going to try and be as politically correct as possible.

the headers were built with the standard valve covers installed. not the fabricated ones he has now. ed had been sent pictures several times and i actually suggested that he bring his car out to us for us to do all the fab work on it as he had already had issues with his previous chassis shop. that didnt happen. the mockup car that was used has a stock front end on it such as a-arms etc... the headers were built to fit within those confines as thats all we were given to work with. as i stated above, he had been sent pictures and if there was any issue with the valve covers (after reading all of his other outlandish posts) dont you think he would have said something at some point? all i did was build him a set of headers and i would guess that i have 50-100+ emails from him with pictures and examples of other headers and intercooler placement and what not.

5-11-12 9:37 am; ed emailed me and asked if i could get him another flange as he was going to have his current shop rebuild the header to clear his new valve covers. weve been extremely busy in the shop and our mill has been covered up so i told him id have them cut at a laser shop just to get them out a little quicker. admittedly they did take a little longer to get done than i would have hoped but they were shipped out sometime around the middle of july and then came back with "insufficient address". we then shipped out another flange to him which he then posted pics on here awaring everyone that he received the flange.

no mention was ever made about being to fit a box end wrench on the bolts. HOWEVER... i did mention numerous times that we should go to smaller diameter tubing for clearance issues with the bolts and usually with turbo apps you run smaller anyways. but... here again, i have an email from "tom vaught" that ed forwarded me where he even suggests 1-7/8" tubing for the normal reasons for running smaller primaries with a turbo app. but... ed being the keyboard crewchief that he is still insisted on 2". well, there isnt much room when you put a 2" primary into this flange. the bolt holes are where the bolt holes are.

the headers had no problems bolting up to the heads that were in my shop that were used for mockup purposes and when lynn bolted them onto eds engine with eds heads (see pics a few posts below) but yet when they traveled up to NH they suddenly dont bolt up. maybe its a geographical thing?!?

all in all... look at the accomplishments of the handful of people that were involved in this build out here in the indiana area...

Cartel, LLC- (3) NHRA best engineered awards (1 of which was a snowmobile that beat out 2 brand new A/Hemi cars at last years dutch classic)

Lynn McCarty- several national records in SS

Tony Bischoff- national records, national event wins, class wins etc...

ill take myself out of the equation as im a little biased. but, how many of you really propose that you can have those kind of accomplishments if youre an asshole and do shotty work? not gonna happen.

flame away everyone.

[mysticmissle]

what were the original design/build specifications for horsepower? if turbo headers were commissioned obviously the NA hp was just the tip of the iceberg as far as power potential? No doubt the prior reputations of all parties involved was stellar, now it appears there is a lot of mud in the waters. this was/is a high end, money is no object build. If Ed was told he needed a titanium balancer bolt, from tony, lynn or anyone else consulted in this build he would have bought it. If the engine 'builder'(s) missed their price point at quote time its on them. the customer should get what he paid for. Ed should/could have an 1100 hp NA street motor at this price level.

[pastry_chef]

Originally Posted by jerzfabguy

Lynn McCarty- several national records in SS

excuse me???????

[RAIV-Z]

Originally Posted by NHRASuperStock455SD

I do not wish to engage Ed Page in this response.

These are all countless examples of Ed Page misrepresenting the facts. Please know that he bought a street engine that was going to make power by virtue of the turbos. Ed now wants a race engine with race components.

Please be specific.

Originally Posted by NHRASuperStock455SD

Ed's pictures showing the valve cover are his attempt to "rebuild" this engine not according to the original agreed upon design. The pictures only show his lack of abilities and nothing else with regard to header installation. He also is trying to install valve covers that were never intended to go on this engine from the start. (see pictures).

The aluminum valve covers where shipped to BES, they installed them. I guess you could say they rebuilt the engine. They are Pontiac valve covers and they do fit this engine, they just don’t fit with the driver’s side header installed.

Originally Posted by NHRASuperStock455SD

This engine was built by multiple Engine Masters Tournament champion Tony Bischoff of BES racing engines. It performed on the dyno remarkably without failure. Tony has proven himself to Super Stock, Stock, NMCA winning racers in the Pontiac community. Tony completely disassembled the engine after dyno for a complete inspection and everything checked out fine.

Tony mentioned cutting the filter open, nothing about tearing down the engine. Are you sure?

Originally Posted by NHRASuperStock455SD

It became clear towards the end that Ed decided he wanted something different from what he ordered. He tried to change things after it was too late. Largely these were ideas obtained from the internet public who did not know the facts of the original design and build. It was changed from street engine to race engine. We tried to accomodate Ed's changes where possible which severely affected his end cost.

Again, the day 1 goal was 1600hp on “Pump Gas” What specifically did I want changed after it was too late?

Originally Posted by NHRASuperStock455SD

Ed continues to "redo" this engine for not what was originally contracted. His misrepresentation of the facts are somewhat astounding, but mostly hyperbole and twisted facts to promote his agenda.

Nothing except the balancer has been changed thus far. I’d like to see that contract you keep mentioning.

Originally Posted by NHRASuperStock455SD

My contractors are respected contractors of the community and have done countless projects successfully. We cannot turn an engine into something that was not designed in the beginning. If Ed installed this engine and ran it, it would be fine. He is simply too afraid to run it.

They do have stellar reputations, how many successful projects of this scale have they done with you?

Originally Posted by NHRASuperStock455SD

His pictures of header installation only prove that he has no idea how to install headers. It took me only about 10 minutes to install them, however we installed them with OEM valve covers that were modified specially to fit Ed's engine. The valve covers that Ed is showing in his photos are not the same valve covers.

There is no way you attached these headers to my set of RA-V heads and installed EVERY header bolt or even header studs. The holes in the flange don’t line up with all the holes in the head. YES it’s a simple fix, but is shows a lack of attention to detail.

Originally Posted by NHRASuperStock455SD

I am attaching photos of the engine with the valve covers and headers that we installed. Ed has disassembled the engine. Please know that all items due to his disassemble are suspect.

Yes, I remember these pictures well. They looked great, do you also remember me asking for you to take a picture from directly in front of the engine so I could see how much clearance there was? Would you like to know the date and time the questions was asked and the date and time of your response?

Originally Posted by NHRASuperStock455SD

This was a great engine that outperformed most other turbo engines of a more RACE character as a street engine. With Ed's tampering we cannot be sure what is good craftmanship remains. I ask repeatly ask Ed to stop with doctored, highlighted & magnified pictures and other misrepresentations.

Only the valve covers, incorrect rocker studs, rockers and balancer have been removed. The rest of the engine will be disassembled and check by a reputable 3rd party. With regards to the pictures, the only editing was highlighting problem areas and resizing the photos as they were taken with a very high resolution digital camera. The originals can be made available upon request.

Originally Posted by NHRASuperStock455SD

It is this ad nauseum of misrepresentation of the truth that prevents my comments for any useful conclusion. As an example, I was at Norwalk showing my product Saturday and Sunday. It is a perfect example of how Ed tries to misconstrue the facts to promote his agenda. Ed will never be satisfied, and there are far too many misrepresentations to address them all.

I’ve got to ask… Did anyone see Lynn and his products at the 2012 PY Nationals this year?

[mechanickeith]

All parties involved in this build need to sit down & hash this out. It should not be bashed around on an open forum like this. Right now it looks just like a past dael with a aftermarket block of suspect quality that ended up in court.

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by jerzfabguy

allow me to join in the conversation if you will... i am "the indy cartel" and owner of the shop that has been building lynn's headers for about 2 years now. i would love to get on here and go "jersey shore" on this guy but im certain it will be used against me at some point so i am going to try and be as politically correct as possible.

FIRST OFF, Welcome to the board, JERZRFABGUY. Tough to get dragged into these discussions but it is what it is.

Personally I think that your stuff looks really nice. I think that there may have been other people that suggested a smaller tube diameter to Ed, also, Travis Quillen possibly.

Again welcome to the board.

Tom Vaught

[1971WARBIRD]

Originally Posted by RAIV-Z

I’ve got to ask… Did anyone see Lynn and his products at the 2012 PY Nationals this year?

did see him sunday in the pits. he was sit-up with some other racers and had several heads and intakes laying around.

[NHRASuperStock455SD]

I have no national records, but am going for one this fall with the great workmanship of Tony at BES and Joe at theindycartel.com.

If anyone has any questions they can ask me personally to my email address, I will be happy to answer...except for the guy who I have answered 500++ times.

He got 150% of what he ordered and his expecations are something 150% of that.

[pastry_chef]

Originally Posted by NHRASuperStock455SD

I have no national records

Correct.

Our imaginations wonder where Mr. Indy Cartel got the understanding you have "several"

[cgeise]

Lynn -- we all know there is always 2 sides to every story -- but trying to wash your hands of it does little to validate your points - and the pictures that have been posted - along with the reports of some REALLY high expenses for labor and parts sure seem to paint a very poor picture for you and your business. The one I feel sorry for -- besides the owner, is BES - as they accually have a reputation to protect

[jerzfabguy]

Originally Posted by pastry_chef

Correct.

Our imaginations wonder where Mr. Indy Cartel got the understanding you have "several"

My bad dude. For some reason I thought he did. I'm one of the few people that will admit when he's wrong. But why are you acting like you're 5 about it? Talking about "imaginations" etc... You gotta ****ing hard on for lynn or something?