[Steve Barcak]

Poison- "That's great stuff. Did Pontiac get back into the factory racing stuff in the '60s?

No, they were not allowed until about 1985 after the Pontiac V-8 was killed. Then Pontiac started developing racing parts based on the chev engine, that is what I have labeled "corporate nonsense!" ( a nice way of saying corporate BS). Now, I am talking about factory race cars and parts. There were individuals and dealerships who raced Pontiacs after the Jan '63 ban but, they were mostly in the lower classes as the higher classes generally went to the Fords and Mopars who were constantly coming out with wilder, tricker stuff like HEMIs, SOHCs, tunnleports, Boss 429, 302, etc, etc. the Pontiac could not run with them as they were only offering and selling street cars while Mopar and Fomoco offered street cars and factory race cars. The '68 HEMI Cudas and Darts and the '64 427 Thunderbolt Fairlanes are some examples.




I read about the "swiss cheese cars." Were those factory or aftermarket? What year were those? They were factory built and are generally accepted as the zenith of Pontiac racing, at least for the full size models. The 421 Tempest were really something but, Pontiac only made about a dozen of them before the ban. My understanding is many more were planned to be made. Because of their limited production, they were not allowed to run in the A/FX classes, had to run modified production. They were made a few months prior to the ban. More were planned but, the ban stopped everything.

[Jack Gifford]

Originally Posted by poison heart

.. Seems like someone like Mickey Thompson would have made Pontiacs more popular if he was racing them.

umm... more popular than what? sex? Too bad you weren't around then...

[Jack Gifford]

Originally Posted by Brian Baker

... the spark plug holes appear to be angled...

Sorry, but I don't see that the photo shows them angled. The heads certainly are mysterious, in any case!

[poison heart]

Ok Jack, I'm not sure what you meant by that but I'm getting the impression that you're not too fond of me. I just meant that Pontiacs aren't very popular performance wise compared to Chevy, Ford or Mopar. If you see a Pontiac line up with a Chevy at the racetrack chances are the majority of the crowd is going to be routing for the Chevy. I'm just saying Pontiacs get underestimated. Not to mention the lack of aftermarket compared to Chevy and Mopar.

Anyway, Back on track, let the photos flow

[Brian Baker]

Originally Posted by pontiac jack

Sorry, but I don't see that the photo shows them angled. The heads certainly are mysterious, in any case!

The plugs are out of the head. Look closer at how the light casts shadows around the holes. They be angled, matey!

[Brian Baker]

Originally Posted by poison heart

Ok Jack, I'm not sure what you meant by that but I'm getting the impression that you're not too fond of me. I just meant that Pontiacs aren't very popular performance wise compared to Chevy, Ford or Mopar. If you see a Pontiac line up with a Chevy at the racetrack chances are the majority of the crowd is going to be routing for the Chevy. I'm just saying Pontiacs get underestimated. Not to mention the lack of aftermarket compared to Chevy and Mopar.

Anyway, Back on track, let the photos flow

Nah...Jack doesn't dislike you. He's just saying that times were different then, and with him having lived through them, special. I just turned 40 and I sometimes think I was born in the wrong era...all the stuff I like is considered "old" or "nostalgia".

[Brian Baker]

Great stuff, Steve. To expound a little more on what you said I'll try to more completely answer the "swiss cheese" question.

Keep in mind Poison' that back in those days, manufacturers would release new cars for sale typically in late summer or early fall. In other words, the 1963 models would have been available for sale to the general public usually by sometime in September 1962. This is how Pontiac managed to manufacture 1963 model year "race" cars. By 1963, through Pontiacs SD (Super Duty) racing program, they were not only offering up the horsepower, they were trying to find ways to make the cars lighter for competition. Factory race cars back then were for the most part full size cars, like the Catalina, Ford's Galaxie, etc. Using intermediate sized cars (which in latter years were cars like GTO, Chevelle, etc.) hadn't really been done before Pontiac stuffed a 421-SD engine into the little Tempest.

Back on the "swiss cheese" cars. By the 1963 model year, many manufacturers were building factory prepped "race" cars and making them as light as possible. They were doing things like installing lightweight seats in them, no sound deadener in the body and sometimes no carpet (just a rubber mat), and the greatest weight saver of all, aluminum body panels. Pontiac was no different, offering Catalina's with aluminum front fenders, hoods, bumpers, etc. Pontiac took it one step further and built (if memory serves correctly) 12 "swiss cheese" Catalina's. The term "swiss cheese" was dubbed by a well known automotive journalist from the time, his name being Roger Huntington. Roger was referring to the cars frames. The factory had drilled many holes, some of them quite large, along the entire length of the frames in these cars in an effort to cut more weight. Roger commented in an article he penned that they looked like so much "swiss cheese" and the term stuck and is still used today to describe these rare cars. The idea was a flop, as the frame frequently broke and never in the same place twice after they were rewelded. By January 1963 when GM laid down the racing ban, it didn't matter anymore. Few of these cars survive today.

The other arrow in Pontiacs quiver was the '63 421-SD Tempest. Pontiac built 12 of these, 6 coupes and 6 wagons. They were quite unique in that they had a 4-speed transaxle in the rear of the car, with the flywheel and clutch out back, fed by what weas dubbed as a "rope" driveshaft from the engine. You had to use the clutch to launch these cars, but once underway they were shifted without the clutch, just like an automatic. They also had aluminum front ends on them, just like the bigger Cats. The pinnacle of Pontiac engineering in 1963, and in my opinion, these cars were the pinnacle of Pontiac racing. A few of these cars exist today as well.

If you'd like to learn more about Pontiac history, I would suggest getting a copy of Pete McCarthy's books on Pontiac's 1955-1981.

[Brian Baker]

These need no introduction, however...in looking at the chassis under the Super Judge, I'm wondering if it was the same chassis that was later under the Boss Bird?

[Brian Baker]

Here's another one that is mostly unknown by the Pontiac community. A Hemi powered Challenger that Arnie campaigned briefly in 1971. The car was owned by Vic Ferris from NY (Vic was allegedly connected with some "wise guys"). A before shot when Vic first campaigned it, and an after shot repainted when Arnie campaigned it. The car was destroyed over the July 4th weekend 1971 at a race in Union Grove, WI. See accompanying article from the July 17th, 1971 edition of Drag News.

[Brian Baker]

This one I have zero information on. Can anyone help?

[Jack Gifford]

As Brian said, it's not about disliking any fellow members here. I was trying to say that Mickey DID make Pontiacs more popular WHEN he was racing them (up to early '63). From about '59 to '63, Pontiac V8s were THE engine of choice- hotrodders were stuffing them into all sorts of vehicles- they couldn't have been any more popular.

[GonicGM]

Originally Posted by pontiac jack

...From about '59 to '63, Pontiac V8s were THE engine of choice- hotrodders were stuffing them into all sorts of vehicles- they couldn't have been any more popular.

I remember a period magazine with a how-to article for transplanting a 389 into a Vette (58-60) for increased power.

[GonicGM]

Originally Posted by Brian Baker

Here's another one that is mostly unknown by the Pontiac community. A Hemi powered Challenger that Arnie campaigned briefly in 1971. The car was owned by Vic Ferris from NY (Vic was allegedly connected with some "wise guys"). A before shot when Vic first campaigned it, and an after shot repainted when Arnie campaigned it. The car was destroyed over the July 4th weekend 1971 at a race in Union Grove, WI. See accompanying article from the July 17th, 1971 edition of Drag News.

Off the Pontiac subject for a moment but while on Challengers...
The Hills Brothers campaigned an early Challenger AA flopper circa 1971-1974, it was white and had a very unique feature I was only aware with on that car. The car ran the northeast, I believe that car was based in the northeast as well. Does Brian or anyone remember the car or the feature?

[Brian Baker]

I'm not familiar with that one, Gregg...but I will see what I can find out for you.

[sdbob]

The racing in 62/63 was power to weight.The Pontiacs were heavier by design for street use. The Mopars were lighter so the development of the 'swiss cheese Cats'. The tempests were better-if you ever could get a picture of Arnies 63 station wagon the rear tailgate tells the story about the Mopars.Listen -Listen to theMopars Cry as the equal weighing Pontiacs go by'.From the stories I read the initial clasification was SuperStock-A.For these tempests but no one had ever heard of the auto-manual trans.Remember the one maker was putting large amounts of money( when you get beat by technology you cry for equal playing field) into advertising so these 63's were moved to A/FX then to MP.The literature I've read the first tunnel ram intake was the 63 'Bathtub' for these Pontiacs.If you get Arnies disc he tells the story.Imagine whopping up on all the big factory cars by a little "farmer".They were not happy!

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Steve Barcak

...Because of their limited production, they were not allowed to run in the A/FX classes, had to run modified production...

Originally Posted by sdbob

...so these 63's were moved to A/FX then to MP...

Good summary Steve, Brian and everyone.

Just one very minor correction, respectfully submitted: Modified Production was actually a lesser (slower) class than A/FX.

Our essentially stock '65 GTO ran B/Stock in 1965 and 1966; in 1967 we moved up to B/Modified Production with the addition of the later tripower, headers and larger slicks.

The FX classes (Factory Experimental) were reserved for these more rare build quantities and "wilder" combinations, including aluminum packages, and ultimately altered wheelbases and fuel injection.

Incidentally, we ran B/Stock with our '63 HO Catalina (when we could get away with it). When the aluminum front end was question we would have to bump up to B/FX, where we were not competitive.

FWIW -

K

[tom s]

as I remember it(was there) but a long time ago.The factory cars ran F/X,cars that were modified like a 63 SD tempest with a converted solid axle were put in M/P.Also cars with over the counter stuff were put in M/P.I ran my 63 lemans with a 326 3 speed trans axle and a tripower which pontiac listed as 290HP at Pomona.Farmer(head of NHRA teck) told me to pond sand,was not buying it in stock,and put me in M/P.Also in 62 the cars were done diff than 63s.In 62 they had FX/A on the car,in 63 they went to A/FX.For a good example look at the MT/Cox 62 Tempest driven by Hayden Proffet.Tom

[Keith Seymore]

Yep - sounds right, although I didn't remember there being a M/P in '63 (I didn't think that came until later, like 66 or 67).

Originally Posted by tom s

Farmer(head of NHRA teck) told me to pond sand,was not buying it in stock,and put me in M/P.

Farmer (Dismuke) was the one that gave us trouble about our Catalina, too! He probably used those same words...

He had a ring with a magnet on the backside; he'd lay his hand on the car and if he found aluminum anywhere where it was supposed to be steel you were outta' there!

[tom s]

You might be right!Might have been late 63 when I was trying to get the tripower by.Like I said,long time ago.We ran more IHRA back then.Won our class at the nationals in Phoenix when the Ram Chargers came out with the altered wheel base car.Tom

[Jack Gifford]

Hey, Tom S- it's post#438 of this thread that I mentioned- did you get my phone message?