[BruceWilkie]

Originally Posted by johnta1

DUH!

The main purpose is to make more power.

Sorry John I disagree...
thermal barrier coatings are intended to protect.

Added thermal protection allows the opportunity to push thermal thresholds. Pushing thermal thresholds further may allow for more power to be made or simply extend the amount of time before a piston melts or other heat related catastrophe.


I never got around to testing coatings when I was attempting to get a fan cooled 2 stroke to make the power levels of same size liquid cooled motor.
But I did find thresholds(mostly the hard way) and I did find ways to cool the heads/pistons enough to push a bit further and increase power and hold together long enough to go slightly over a 1/4 mile without caving or nuking a piston.
Most races were under 1/8 mile and I quickly learned I wasnt going to survive a long distance run down the lake.I knew how long I could run at 1350,1400, and 1450 degree egt's. (1350 is considered really pushin things when you have oil mixed with your gas)

I had near doubled my factory power... I was right in power range of the hot factory liquid cooled motors same cc. Separate classes for fan motors had about dried up... At that point I wasnt spendin any more $$$ to test any further... (only one or two pistons but re-nicasil the jugs and gaskets sets etc. every week adds up quick) A factory liquid with a few tweaks would eat my azz.

Do I think heat barrier coatings might have allowed more power? A few times I considered stoppin by Swaintech... I think probably... but not likely much. Hard to quantify unknowns. I didnt feel coating costs worth the risks of findin the new limit it MIGHT give me.

For sake of this discussion I wish I had.

[johnta1]

thermal barrier coatings are intended to protect.

Maybe on the current products?



My premise is they should keep the heat in the chamber and away from the pistons, valves, head chamber, etc if done right.

It would make more power.

The exhaust stroke would evacuate what is left like a normal exhaust stroke.

More BTU's burned, more power.

Less combustion heat lost to the water cooling system, metal, etc. makes more power.

If it can make more power, you can add more fuel to make more power.



If 1/3rd of the power stroke is wasted to heat going where it doesn't do any good, and one can 'reclaim' a percentage of that wasted heat, that's free power and MORE HP.



But, I will wait on the flaming as usual.

[Tom Vaught]

Said it before: If you add a Tablespoon of water to Lake Michigan, did it raise the level of the water in the lake? Yes, by 1 tablespoons worth of new volume. Is the guy on the beach going to notice a difference, No way in h*ll.

So back on the thermal coating deal. Did the coating add a few BTUs to the heat in the cylinder? Absolutely.
Did it really make a difference in the track times vs the increased durability of the engine and the ability to add more NOS?
Probably that was the real gain with the coating not the BTU increase.

Most of the guys around have read just enough "engineering" information on the web to make conclusions that are totally wrong. Even real world data from hundreds of hours of testing can be looked at different ways depending on your 'agenda' and what you are trying to sell.

Just saying.

Tom Vaught

[Kevspontiacs@aol.com]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Said it before: If you add a Tablespoon of water to Lake Michigan, did it raise the level of the water in the lake? Yes, by 1 tablespoons worth of new volume. Is the guy on the beach going to notice a difference, No way in h*ll.

Tom Vaught

LMAO that's good! but Tom you know that some people, just to argue, will say that they noticed

[Motor Daddy]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Said it before: If you add a Tablespoon of water to Lake Michigan, did it raise the level of the water in the lake? Yes, by 1 tablespoons worth of new volume. Is the guy on the beach going to notice a difference, No way in h*ll.

Is it possible the additional tablespoon of water that was added was additional spill over at some damn, or creek, river, pond, and the lake water level remained the same even though a tablespoon of water was added to the lake? Is it possible that as soon as you started adding the tablespoon of water to the lake, a fisherman somewhere pulled a fish out of the water lowering the level of the lake, and you added the tablespoon of water and measured the lake level and it was lower?

[mike leech]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Said it before: If you add a Tablespoon of water to Lake Michigan, did it raise the level of the water in the lake? Yes, by 1 tablespoons worth of new volume. Is the guy on the beach going to notice a difference, No way in h*ll.

So back on the thermal coating deal. Did the coating add a few BTUs to the heat in the cylinder? Absolutely.
Did it really make a difference in the track times vs the increased durability of the engine and the ability to add more NOS?
Probably that was the real gain with the coating not the BTU increase.

Most of the guys around have read just enough "engineering" information on the web to make conclusions that are totally wrong. Even real world data from hundreds of hours of testing can be looked at different ways depending on your 'agenda' and what you are trying to sell.

Just saying.

Tom Vaught

Thats a pretty good analogy there Tom. And I like analogies. Well said....

[mike leech]

Originally Posted by motor-daddy

Is it possible the additional tablespoon of water that was added was additional spill over at some damn, or creek, river, pond, and the lake water level remained the same even though a tablespoon of water was added to the lake? Is it possible that as soon as you started adding the tablespoon of water to the lake, a fisherman somewhere pulled a fish out of the water lowering the level of the lake, and you added the tablespoon of water and measured the lake level and it was lower?

What about all the kids Taking a wiz while swimming? Won't that increase the temperature?

[Motor Daddy]

Originally Posted by mike leech

What about all the kids Taking a wiz while swimming? Won't that increase the temperature?

The Second Law of Thermodynamics guarantees that the equilibrium point of the different temperatures will be between those temperatures, so each temperature will change towards that point when the liquids combine. If the temp of the piss is 98.6 degrees, and the water temp is 100 degrees, then the water temp will be cooler after the kid takes a piss in the lake. 'Course, Lake Michigan is probably 33 degrees now if you can find some liquid water amongst the ice. Brrrrrrrrr!!! NC is great!

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by motor-daddy

Is it possible the additional tablespoon of water that was added was additional spill over at some damn, or creek, river, pond, and the lake water level remained the same even though a tablespoon of water was added to the lake? Is it possible that as soon as you started adding the tablespoon of water to the lake, a fisherman somewhere pulled a fish out of the water lowering the level of the lake, and you added the tablespoon of water and measured the lake level and it was lower?

Originally Posted by mike leech

What about all the kids Taking a wiz while swimming? Won't that increase the temperature?

Excellent Points Guys!

That is my point:

You KNOW that you added the additional tablespoon of water to the lake. That is a fact.
Now did you have a offsetting factor that reduced the amount in the lake by one tablespoon (that you were not aware of) impact the final result, no way to tell.

Too many variables. but you will always have someone say that "this increase was caused by this factor".

The guy struck by Lightning was probably in the wrong spot, vs the theory that the guy pi$$ed off some God from Asgard. But some people will believe that Asgard stuff too.

Tom Vaught

[johnta1]

Thats a pretty good analogy there Tom. And I like analogies. Well said....

That doesn't surprise me one bit.



It is an analogy, just not a good one in this thread.



How about if you take that tablespoon of water and drop it down the throat of your carb while it's idling?

Does it make a difference?



Will it make me happier?

Yes.

[Region Warrior]

Since your on the subject of water temp...
Anyone have the chemical formula of how/why hot water freezes faster then cold when making ice cubes?

[mike leech]

Originally Posted by johnta1

That doesn't surprise me one bit.



It is an analogy, just not a good one in this thread.



How about if you take that tablespoon of water and drop it down the throat of your carb while it's idling?

Does it make a difference?



Will it make me happier?

Yes.

It was an excellent analogy. Just didn't make your love affair with your ideas a reality. Analogies are great for helping guys like you understand the difficult things in life. Tom tried to let you down slowly....another analogy....

As far as the tablespoon of water.....how much difference it makes would depend on how fast its "dropped" down the carb and a few other factors......care to continue? I'd love to hear your Ideas about what might happen and why it MIGHT make you happy.

[cgeise]

Hey -- I believe in Asgard

[johnta1]

Anyone have the chemical formula of how/why hot water freezes faster then cold when making ice cubes?

Yes.

[Region Warrior]

Good.
Should of said warm vs cool.
Can you let the "science world" know cause they their still arguing how/why it happens.

[mike leech]

Originally Posted by Region Warrior

Good.
Should of said warm vs cool.
Can you let the "science world" know cause they their still arguing how/why it happens.

He could tell you but then he would have to kill you.

[Motor Daddy]

1. Fill an 8 oz glass with water and fill 8 oz of water into an air sprayer that sprays a high volume of water in a short amount of time, under a high pressure, and sprays an extremely fine mist.

2. Go to a damn cold area, but remain warm until the start.

3. Place the glass of water in the cold and spray the water from the sprayer at the same time.

4. The sprayer water freezes almost instantly in thin air!

5. The glass of water is still water.

6. End result is that less dense water freezes faster than more dense water.

7. Given two identical masses of water, one a higher temp than the other, the higher temp mass is less dense.

8. Less dense water freezes faster than more dense water, remember?

[Tom Vaught]

Another excellent analogy, MD, that people can understand easily.

Not really the Formula requested but good enough for a guy like me.

Tom Vaught

[Half-Inch Stud]

This Page 29 disappoints me. I've read better ramblings in the clubhouse.

[john marcella]

NOW THIS COATING WORKS!!!!!!!!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rMcRJVY1-0