[dgb100]

Had my 70.5 TA since new. Blue interior w/ console 4-speed had the black ball.
Never knew there were so many different knobs. Of course, not like you see one every day either.

[PetesPonies]

when was your car built?

[dgb100]

Not sure, but it was built in Norwood I believe.

[PetesPonies]

I'm trying to figure if the later 70s may have had the leather knob as it appears they were on 71s.

[unruhjonny]

It's also interesting to note that I recall seeing a service package for gauge surrounds - one part number was for chrome surrounds, and the other was for black surrounds...
according to the parts book (if I remember correctly), there was a "build date" cut off date as for which one was correect for which car...

About the ad posted with the '70 T/A with the shifter knob with the red insert - That is the exact add I was refering to - I have never seen that knob, only ones like it that had a walnut handle instead of the psudo-leather handle... I have presumed that was a pre-production peice, like many of the parts on the pre-production Trans An and Formula cars used for magazine tests...

About that picture Pete posted - Yup, the RTS is the most painfully obvious out-of-place item for a 1970 T/A... (the second clue is the "wiper/washer" script opening)

About the date posted as for when the 'bird moved on (non-A/C) cars; was there a point in time when they started going back to that spot? - I have seen many over there - including my '73... I often wondered if there was a ryme or reason as to where the emblem was put, because I see more way over to the right than not...

[Shift'n Gears]

With respect to the shifter, I agree with Larry's statement

Technically....there were two(2) different type "leather" knobs in the '70's.
The early ones had a raised shifter bezel.
The later ones had a flush mounted bezel.

I did find it interesting that some 70 original owners said that their cars came with the round balls instead of the knobs, as none of my research has evidence of this as a option. I researched several Original Dealer brochures and looked in several reference books. All the pictures I have found show the "70 only" shifter knob which has different printing on the raised surface. Since all the pictures are in black & white I cannot tell colors.

To add to the mystery is the fact that dealers would "customize" cars on the showroom floor. Evidence of this is dealer installed options such as in 1971 the Brochure has listed dealer installed Hood Pins. Even though a dealer could have installed them as an option, I would not consider them stock.

If anyone has any date correct photos or other tangible evidence that the round balls were available in 1970 as stock, or a dealer installed option, I would be very interested.

TIA

[eaglesan13]

Ames catalog number F11 (page 155) lists a part number for the 1970 "large diameter black 4 speed shift knob". The comment says, "We have had requests for this rarely used large shift knob found on some 1970 applications...

The part number is FR575C

[unruhjonny]

Originally Posted by Shift'n Gears

With respect to the shifter, I agree with Larry's statement

Technically....there were two(2) different type "leather" knobs in the '70's.
The early ones had a raised shifter bezel.
The later ones had a flush mounted bezel.

?
You do understand that that was posted to distinguish an early from a late psudo-leather shifter handle right?
I have seen the handles with the "raised shift indicator insert" handles in cars as late as 1975... and all the later (eg: 1978+) cars had the "flush shift indicator insert" handles.
IF I notice anything out of place on a car I cannot suggest it as being oringinal especially since this is an easilty changed piece...

Originally Posted by Shift'n Gears

...I did find it interesting that some 70 original owners said that their cars came with the round balls instead of the knobs, as none of my research has evidence of this as a option. I researched several Original Dealer brochures and looked in several reference books. All the pictures I have found show the "70 only" shifter knob which has different printing on the raised surface. Since all the pictures are in black & white I cannot tell colors.

?
Some original owners?? - I thought every original owner here has stated this...
It wasn't untill a couple years back that I knew the '70 Firebirds had specific shifter handles - as this isn't common knowledge; and since the pre-production cars pictured for the 1970 Firebird advertisement campaign clearly did not use production pieces, it should be feasable to understand that some of the finer details had not been cleared out at the time of printing those advertisements...

Originally Posted by Shift'n Gears

...To add to the mystery is the fact that dealers would "customize" cars on the showroom floor. Evidence of this is dealer installed options such as in 1971 the Brochure has listed dealer installed Hood Pins. Even though a dealer could have installed them as an option, I would not consider them stock.

There is no mystery here - the hood pins & hood tach were never installed from the factory (just like 1967/1968 Firebird Ram Air systems) - they were only installed at the dealership.
For you to suggest that a 1970/1971 Firebird with hood pins should not be considered stock, would lend me to believe that you should think that 1970/1971 Formulas with the hood tach - or a 1967/1968 Firebirds with fuctional ram air are all incorrect...

Originally Posted by Shift'n Gears

...If anyone has any date correct photos or other tangible evidence that the round balls were available in 1970 as stock, or a dealer installed option, I would be very interested.

TIA

?
What kind of evidence do you require... how many original 1970 Formula or Trans Am owners have to state that the black ball was their original piece before you believe it was the factory piece...

I believe that the same oversized round (black) ball was used for some years of GTO's and Grand Am's - so this shifter handle was definatly used for more than one year & model application...

I submit for the viewing pleasure of this audience two more pictures of an original 1970 Firebird with a black shifter ball - this one was the most recent one I Photographed, a legit 1970 L74/4spd Formula - the only things changed on it, were paint, and some small service items... this was the first Formula I've seen with the 70 only "ram air"-air cleaner base brakets still in place...

[dgb100]

My 70TA is an April Norwood car with console and has the black 8-ball knob. Original since new. Don't know if this helps or not at this point.

[PetesPonies]

it all helps )

[mr71transam]

I see you guys have been going around and around on this. I just saw this on Ebay and thought someone might want it.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/70-81...QQcmdZViewItem

[Norwood]

I just like posting pics of my car. But again I am not the original owner but have owned my Trans Am since the mid 70's and have known the car since 1972. This is the only ball it has known.

[Shift'n Gears]

Many thanks to Norwood, dgb100, and unuhjohnny for sharing the pics and the information.

To unruhjohnny
1. Yes I understand it was to distinguish between Early and late "raised insert" leather shifter knobs. I have seen 3 Shifter knobs on second gen T/A's. Two styles with raised inserts and 1 with the flat insert. Of the two with raised inserts, one seems to be a 70 only and the other variant 71-74 or 75. I have never seen one on a 75 but as you, I have heard other testaments to this. However, the thread also touched on the "Black Ball" and this is what I was interested in.

2. You mention EVERY original owner here stated they have a "Black Ball". Actually every owner and car I have seen had the Shifter knob. That is why when I saw the thread from Original owners that they had a "balck ball" knob I was interested as it is certainly not the majority, and is not widely known by enthusiasts (as evidence by the thread).

Since I have several references and could not find a factory picture, I was hoping for some support I could document for my records. I in no way am discrediting anyone's input that is an original owner. On the contrary, it seems that SEVERAL cars came that way and I rely heavliy on owners who know their car. For instance I am the second owner of a low mile (16K) 79 T/A with a Factory, not dealer, installed CB (only about 200 sold this way). I have the PHS and Photocopy of the original windowsticker to prove the car came with this option. With the CB came a power antenna. Yet every year I get someone who says the car was modified and the antenna is not stock. While I doublt that a shifter ball would be listed as an option, i was hoping someone had more info.

For me I am more concerned about the how and why the shifter balls were used. Was it the factory using whatever parts they could find? or was it a dealer option?


About the hood pins... Good Point, but where do you draw the line? Say someone bought a 74 Superduty and had the dealer install an Alpine Stereo with oversized speakers in the back shelf. Is that Stock? Knowing that dealers (back then anyway) would do what it took to please the customer, they would make changes to the car to please the customer. I just happen to be hesitant grouping all dealer mods as stock. In the case of the hood pins, since it was an over the counter part from the dealer, Yeah I guess it is stock.

[keith k]

Originally Posted by unruhjonny

I submit for the viewing pleasure of this audience two more pictures of an original 1970 Firebird with a black shifter ball - this one was the most recent one I Photographed, a legit 1970 L74/4spd Formula - the only things changed on it, were paint, and some small service items... this was the first Formula I've seen with the 70 only "ram air"-air cleaner base brakets still in place...

How cool is that!... a '70 deluxe sandalwood interior that hasn't been changed to black

Thanks for posting, jonny -- good reference for me (right down to the black ball shift knob )

[superdutybob]

Good thread guys!

Being a tech inspector at the Nationals for the last two years with more to come, I have seen a lot of variations of options that are claimed to be "stock or dealer installed".

unruhjohnny and I have discussed this over on the TAC boards. It's hard for one or two people to know everything about all years. The intention of Shift N Gears is to gain knowledge from people who have experiences that he may not have and that he can use as the Tech Chairperson at the Nationals this year.

I only wish that each of the "experts" on these and other boards could come and tech cars at the Nationals to get a feeling of what we are dealing with each year. It's not an easy job but I feel that we do a pretty good job.

[3tas4me]

I have never seen a 1970 T/A with the leather simulated knob. I have only seen black or white balls. However, as someone else said, there isn't exactly many of these cars being used as daily drivers so the opportunity to see one is slim. I know where a 1970 is sitting in a shed and it has 60xxx miles on it. The car is pretty much stock and has either the white or black ball on it. Been a while since I looked at it so I don't remember which one but I know it isn't the simulated leather knob. However, there seem to be so many variables with these cars I have learned to never say never..........

[unruhjonny]

Originally Posted by Shift'n Gears

Many thanks to Norwood, dgb100, and unuhjohnny for sharing the pics and the information.
...However, the thread also touched on the "Black Ball" and this is what I was interested in.
...You mention EVERY original owner here stated they have a "Black Ball".
...For me I am more concerned about the how and why the shifter balls were used. Was it the factory using whatever parts they could find? or was it a dealer option?

Ok, I'll compile the first hand testimony of people only on this tread that support the black ball being original to their 1970 Firebirds - these might not all be original owners, but these are first hand responces specific to this thread;

#1

Originally Posted by Norwood

I just like posting pics of my car. But again I am not the original owner but have owned my Trans Am since the mid 70's and have known the car since 1972. This is the only ball it has known.

#2

Originally Posted by dgb100

Had my 70.5 TA since new. Blue interior w/ console 4-speed had the black ball.
Never knew there were so many different knobs. Of course, not like you see one every day either.

Originally Posted by dgb100

My 70TA is an April Norwood car with console and has the black 8-ball knob. Original since new. Don't know if this helps or not at this point.

#3

Originally Posted by eaglesan13

Roundport,

My 70 has deluxe interior (sandlewood) and the black shifter knob.

#4

Originally Posted by eaglesan13

My 70 has a console and the large black shifter ball.

#5

Originally Posted by Chiefpontiac

I can provide two more examples of TA's equipped with the large black ball:

1) 1970 TA without console and less than 100k miles built in May 1970. Did not end up with this car but it was original down to the hose clamps.

2) 1971 TA with console and less than 90k miles built in August 1970. This is my personal car and it is definitely the original knob. It also has the chrome rings around the gauges.

#6

Originally Posted by racerboy

I bought one in the autumn. The T/A is in a garage many miles away, so I can't take a picture. It is noticeably larger than the white shift ball. I don't really like the way it feels, but that's probably b/c I'm used to the "standard size" shifter ball in my '65 and '67 GTOs, and up unitl now, in my '70 T/A.

Frank

#7

Originally Posted by keith k

Both of the extremely original, low-mileage '70 4-speed T/As I've seen have had the black 8-ball. One was a standard interior car, the other deluxe.

And this is not taking into account for any of the seemingly unaltered cars I've seen...

I'll quote a piece of my responce from the first page:

Originally Posted by unruhjonny

I believe that the black 4-speed (simulated leather) knob that appears similar to the black automatic (simulated leather) knob is considered by many people to be correct for 1970 Firebirds, but it is not the OE piece...

I would relisticly suspect that the simulated leather knob was supposed to be installed on all 1970 Firebirds, but they were not readily available when it came to the time of production - this might also explain why many early 1970 AT-console shift cars received the fake walnut knobs as well

And here might be some of the info you requested;

Noveber 1974 Firebird (1967-1975) MPC (under 4 speed transmission):
Group 4.006 Knob, Transmission gearshift control:
988605 1970/ALL - BLACK
also there is this line:
481595 1970-1975/ALL - SIMULATED LEATHER

There are some people in this (Pontiac) community that can verify when a part was first used by breaking down the numbering system (I found this out when I started trying to find date code correct regular exhaust manifolds for my '70 Formula - apparently the 979--- and 988--- numbering system was used a good year prior to the 48---- numbering system (as a new part cam available it used the next number available) - by checking this I found that the 48---- numbered exhaust manifolds that are often sold as being for my car (and are also listed in my MPC for my car) are in actuallity incorrect to my car, since the 48---- numbered exhaust manifolds were first being used in 1972 (and feasibly late 1971-but I have seen none dated for the 1971 model year.)

I own a black 3-speed shifter ball taken from a 1970 3-spd m/t base model that I helped part out... I'm wondering if that crappy plastic will take a heli-coil - because these knobs are impossible to find (and my '70 Formula is a Muncie 3-spd car)...

In the end I really think that one of the big problems here is many people will buy a used car, thinking it's all original, when in fact one of the previous owners may have changed one or two items, and not thought to mention it - so the following owner will swear it's all original...

SDbob - I can't wait to be at the Trans Am nationals this year - by no means am I interested in entering any judged show - I just hope to have the '70 fixed in time to take it (if I don't get it done my '73 will have to suffice)... BTW: would you have any idea of the greatest distance any participant has driven their Firebird to be there?? - just curious...

[Shift'n Gears]

unruhjonny,

As Superdutybob mentioned, this will be my first year as Tech Chair at the T/A nats. I grew up with the second gen T/A and try to stay informed as possible with all T/A variations, however I do not know it all. And in those cases, not only do I try to find the facts, I am tryng to document my research. In this particular case I certainly appreciate your input and fact finding. Curious to me is that in 67-68 a no cost option was a custom Shift knob - sales code 524. however, I cannot find any such references for the 1970 model year, hence my questioning the two different styles in 1970. Another question I have is that the owners reference "black" as the color of the ball. Was there ever a white one on a T/A? Other pontiacs had them but does anyone have an original T/A with a white shifter ball?

With respect to the Nats, besides Superdutybob and myself we have several enthusiats trying to make Tech Inspection as accurate as possible. We take our hobby seriously and want to be fair to all participants.

As far as the farthest driver, I know that there was a participant that drove from Dallas one year (approx 1000 miles), but I am not sure if that is the longest on record. The farthest Participant came from Hawaii. in 2000 He brought an all original 73 White SD auto car. The car was very rough, but it had unique stuff like the original tires. The "story " behind it though, was the car resided in California, but since he had a house in Hawaii, he titled it that state. So while the participants address was Hawaii, the car was not shipped from the Hawiian islands to Dayton.

[eaglesan13]

Keith,

I also noticed the deluxe sandlewood interior. The car even has the sandlewood seatbelts (I know we both wish our cars did). At the risk of turning up the heat on this discussion a little further, I noticed that the pictures are from a Formula, not a trans am. And yet, the steering column is painted black! I thought only the trans am got the black column regardless of interior color. The only other original sandlewood interior car I've seen pictures of was that 70 Castillion Bronze low mileage Formula car for sale a little over a year ago. It had deluxe sandlewood interior, a formula wheel but the column was the light sandlewood color.

[unruhjonny]

As far as I have been made aware the only variants for 1970 Firebrids shifter handles are:
1- the woodgrain one with the red insert - no listing anywhere for this one
2- the simulated leather one with the red insert (I have not seen this one outside of that pictured advertisement)
3- the simulated leather one with the regular (raised) insert (generally deemed incorrect for 1970)
4- the large black ball.

I am aware of some earlier GTO's comming with white shifter balls (my earlier link actuall shows these, as the black ball I posted about being reproduced, is actually marketed for GTO's (and being 100% correct fro them).
There were no white shifter balls on 1970 (or later Trans Ams)
I have noticed that all the black balls being marketed outside of the link I posted use a lock nut, while the original unit was a conical thread, that locked in when screwed in place...

- if you are making notes, I have understood from someone who worked at a dealership back in the 70's that many of the second gen cars would have hurst 'T' handles swapped on at the dealership - but the pieces installed at dealerships differ slightly in appearance to most of the aftermarket versions of the handles (I beleive they only said "HURST" in a rectangle, and had no shift pattern) - I am unaware of this ever actually being on the option book, but many people had these in their cars from day one, and I believe there is at least one printed advertisement with this handle shown...

For my drive to the nationals, I'll have 1000miles (one way) obliterated... mapquest says this:
Total Est. Time: 31 hours, 49 minutes Total Est. Distance: 1894.56 miles
I'd suspect that time to be a fair ammount less than it will actually take me... especially since last years road trip saw me being delayed at the border for probably a good hour - the border gaurd seemed suspicious of my big smile - when in actuallity I was very happy to be on a road trip - and far from work on a nice sunny day!