[PMDuser]

Some more highly accurate and reliable info from the Baker camp BIG SURPRISE!!

Personally a Pontiac Crower lifter ought to fit in the block! I don't think that is asking too much.

[Ray Cox]

These threads are here to be imformative but a topic like problems with lifters is a smash not informitave.

A thread about what to look for and mock up on a block when doing a build up would be more informative.

again I think leaving tight tollerances and leting the things be fit by the person building the motor is better I listen to a builder WINE today about having to hone the lifter bore to fit, atleast they arent to big where you have to send them out to be bushed like white warrior did! it takes all of 15 minutes to hone them .
we are lucky we have blocks!
quit whining! I hope whoever is out there thinking about building cranks reads this then they will know what there in for, because know mater what anyone produces, someone here pics it apart its really sad!

[Ray Cox]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PMDuser:
Some more highly accurate and reliable info from the Baker camp BIG SURPRISE!!

Personally a Pontiac Crower lifter ought to fit in the block! I don't think that is asking too much. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>PMD user why dont you post your real name? a waping total of 7 post and your an expert? Most of us know who you are anyhow

[Brian Baker]

Some other points have been brought to my attention by a 3rd party that I previously did not know. Therefore, I owe Steve an apology for making a wrong assumption concerning the decking issue.

[Brian Baker]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PMDuser:
Some more highly accurate and reliable info from the Baker camp BIG SURPRISE!!

Personally a Pontiac Crower lifter ought to fit in the block! I don't think that is asking too much. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not sure how to take your comments, so I won't say anything other than see my apology to Steve.

[russ467]

This new block is like buying a first year car. There will be problems that arise that the manufacturer wont find out about until a few are out in the field. But someone has to make them aware of the problems so they can devolope a plan to fix the real "problem" issues. Whether it is casting flaws, machining flaws, or even just plain designed this way, it is nice to know what you are in for before taking the plunge.

It is understandable that some final machining may be nessasary to make certain parts work. It is also to my understanding that factory parts will and should fit this block, so you would assume something like lifters shouldnt pose a problem if its not an issue in a factory block.

Making others aware of these and other issues and sharing fixes for these problems is one of the main reasons I enjoy this community. Hopefully next year I will be in a position to be able to afford to step up to an IA2 or MR1 block. All of this info will help others to know some of the common hidden cost to make the upgrade.

Thanks Steve for sharing the info.

[Steve C.]

Thanks Brian. A quick note of humor, our machinist/engine builder is a big... BIG fellow ... played for Bear Bryant down in Alabama as a lineman while studying Engineering, he can get gripey.

Not trying to stir up trouble here...
he wants to center on the main bearing saddel bores for accurate referance points. We want the block "sqauare". And it should be expected in my opinion.

Now from input and observations, it appears users need to address the integrity, bore size and finish of the lifter bores themselves.
This from me, and others. Apparantly it goes beyond the simple fact that a lifter might not "drop in" the bore itself. For us it was just an issue with honing and some clearancing of the block wall.

And... the purpose of this post... tie bar clearance issues. Again I'm sorry if others don't agree but this block in my opinion should accept "standard" Pontiac solid roller lifters without tie bar clearance issues. Period, zip!

Other issues with the various plugs and threads, nickel and dime stuff.
But some are tapped incorrectly and some plugs apparantly might intrude into oil galleries... or something to that effect. Just look things over very good.

And pay real hard attention to clearing out.... all... the inside passages, oil and water. The block is really crammed full of junk and machining debris.

[J.C.you]

Steve, welcome to the mishmash of the aftermarket parts world. I think it is in all brands of aftermarket blocks, heads, etc. Give the guys at All Pontiac a little time to iron out the bugs. I spent around a 1000 bucs getting the IA block ready to assemble. Bet u don't have that much in ur block machining. good luck on making ur march 12th race.

[Robin Roberts]

I have begun machine work and assembly on mine. It is a later block than yours Steve so that may be a difference, don't know? So far, so good!! I build many other engines, Dart and World, Ford and Chevies and I think the quality of the casting, attention to details for a variety of setups, etc. has been excellent! Better than the others!!! I haven't tried the lifters yet so you have prompted me to get busy with those checks. I will be buying new lifters so if you or someone could please recommend a part # (I'll call Bob tomorrow also) with offset seat you/they have found to work and what you did to make the links fit.

Picked up the Crower Billet yesterday!!! AAaaahhhh... life is good again. Rods and other components are here, pistons in Friday. Hope to post some dyno numbers soon. Fun days ahead

[Mo]

Steve, I think when you start a post with "problems" it automatically puts one thinking in a negative way about your topic. For example, if I started one "Problems with Steve Coombes performance" and made some criticism about your ability to do something,(like cut a good light) people who don't really know you may believe that is a real problem. I could follow up by saying 10 great things about your performance but people who don't know you may start to think "what other PROBLEMS does he have". Before you know it, everyone will think you have a problem when you really don't. I think that for anyone "on the fence" about moving up to an aftermarket block reads comments about "problems" with a block they may be scared away for no good reason. That is not good for the Pontiac community as a whole.

As far as I'm concerned, I haven't seen any "problems" with the IA2 block at all. There have been some issues on the early ones but they have been resolved. But I do know as an educated consumer of performace parts that there will always be "issues" with anything and everything that is made (that goes for all makes and models) and will require more time/money to resolve. Nature of the beast.

I do think it is a good idea to post information about unknown variables during the building process. It is always better to be informed ahead of time than to learn the hard way. You could also avoid these issues if you have someone who knows the block to do the work for you. That way you'll know what will or will not work or what may need more attention.

Also, for those "on the fence" DO IT! Just be sure to talk to someone with a good bit of experience with the new block and the newer versions so you can get a good idea of any additional costs that may be involved. I know it mine won't be cheap to build, Big HP never is, but knowing its a Pontiac and will last a long time, makes it a little easier to accept. Thanks

Disclaimer, No problems were infered or implied about Steve C.

[Steve C.]

Problem = Difficult matter

The fellow that dyno'd his motor last week and on the first pull it blew up due to a issue with the lifters galling into the lifter bores... I'll be less tacky and tell him he has a difficult matter... not a problem

[BVR421]

A post with PROBLEMS in the header is EXACTLY what I want to see before my checkbook comes out. I dont spend big $$$$ on blind faith. I want to know exactly WTF beforehand. Thats what tirekicking is all about. Its not about asking dumb questions its all about making an informed choice. I'm pleased to be able to hear the experiences of a real customer living 1000s miles away from the vendor. It's Steve's frustrations and Steves gaddamn money and if he wants to scream in pain in public, guess what? he $%^&#@% PAID for that right. Over the last months all I heard regarding AP block preperation was "well, its going to be all the things you expect to have to do with a stock block" OK, so personally I decided on a stock block since Im not going over 750hp on the current project.
I dont see StevesC's machining adventures as negatives on the APIndian block, rather an indication of what the _REAL_ total cost involved is for an end user who chooses this block option. I am a rank beginner at the high end of horsepower so will sit on my checkbook until the dust settles on the playing field. Those who build a high end motor every year or two will have a more relaxed attitude about unexpected machining costs.
I called the APIndian block an option because it appears there will soon be another option. In a narrow niche market that can only mean a higher level of product refinement from the vendors and greater value for the consumer.
We just had 6 months of "no problem", "its all been addressed", etc. No doubt true, to the best extent possible with prototype examples. Now we are hearing the same "nearly golden" with Tiger heads. I think its reasonable to expect there will be minor issues come up in the same manner with those heads. That shouldnt come as any surprise and feedback to AP will help them refine the product. There has to be issues that wont be known until a product is in the hands of many end users in many combinations. Thats OK because AP will respond appropriately and soon there will be a polished product.
Hats off the early adopters who have the courage to saddle up on the bleeding edge.

[Mo]

Steve, just had a friend burn up his 1000+HP BBC on the chasis Dyno. He didn't complain(in public), just said it is time to build a better one. Some guy won't let you see them sweat.LOL
Was wathing the Daytona 500 and saw a couple 50K+ motors blow up too. Drivers were not too happy but I don't recall them saying they have any "problems" with their engine programs. Funny how that works. A guy is out of the race and a HUGE paycheck, but he doesn't flame his engine builder or the manufacturer of his parts. Hmmmmm. I guess it all comes down to loyalty = faithful to a cause.

[punisher#1]

trust me on this. steve was not trying to "flame" anybody. his intention was to inform anyone with one of these blocks that there is more to the assembly than "bore, hone, clean, and assemble". i'm sure anyone with a IA block is thankful that now they know that there are things that need some attention before they get ready to put parts in the block. i sure wish we had known of these issues before we had to find them out for ourselves. if we had we could have been off the dyno and in the car instead of test fitting for the fifth time and struggling to make a dyno session and a race on the 12th.

[Skip Fix]

Mo, maybe the driver didn't flame them because he over revved it.
here's a picture of Steve's link bars hitting.

[Skip Fix]

Another of the block machined not to hit.
Seems a moderate amount to have to take off to have a pretty common lifter work.

[Mo]

A) Never said anything about Steve flaming anyone, see how things get mis-understood. Got to be careful how you say things!
B)Over rev a restrictor plate motor, doubt it.
C)Nice looking block, thought I saw another one with a similar modification! Wonder if BBC roller lifters would work without the mod.

[Rob B]

After sitting here reading 3 pages of lengthy posts,(and getting paid for at that!) I have to chime in on this. I fully understand and commend Steve for posting about his issues with the block. That's like throwing yourself to the wolves sometimes on this board! We don't know how many times he discussed this and other issues he might have had with Frank or Bob at All-Pontiac and it's really none of our business, maybe it was his time to vent?? I went through this with a vendor from this board last spring on issues with my block and components purchased and believe me I wanted to vent on this board about it but decided against it, I just learned another on-going lesson in life and moved on. What is our concern is what is done by AP to remedy the problem(s) they are encountering now so future blocks can be corrected or at least disclose what extra work may need to be done to the block for certain applications.
Somebody using one as basically a replacement for the weaker, hard to find, stock block in a stronger Street/strip motor (550-700hp range) might buy one simply because they are tired of being worried about cracked mains or other issues with stock blocks and having to locate, machine them, spend a bunch of money only to hope the same thing doesn't bite them in the @%# again. That is where I am at and that jsut with a high 10 second car. Same thing apply to cylinder heads. To me it's kind of silly to go through all the expense of buying a set of castings, machining/port work, have at least a grand in a 30yr+ set of heads when all said and done when, for a couple hundred more you can buy brand new aluminums! Some one purchasing a block for this reason might not encounter the problem someone else who is using the same block for a higher HP application where every little detail within that motor is a custom application.
Did Steve post this because he was maybe fustrated about the experience with the block so far??? Maybe he felt that AP should post something on some of the issues they are/had have in the production of the block and they hadn't done that to his satifaction so therefore he did it based on his own personal experience?? To me, he's within his own right to do so for whatever reason he wishes and it was nothing more than an will written informative post in my eyes.
I've been reading all the pro's and con's that have been posted on the block and I think it's been well represented and an excellent piece. Ultimately AP is a business, and a business is there for one ultimate purpose, to hopefully be profitable at some point otherwise it won't exsist nor will the product produced. AP is taking a risk in a relatively small niche market (Pontiac) compared to SBC/BBC and Ford aftermarket components where scrutiny of the products produced is probably 10 times greater than the others only because of the size of the market they are dealing in. Are all the other manufactures producing perfect,flawless, ready to go blocks/heads where you just bolt everything on and go with no extra machine work needed???
Should AP post on this board and/or their website issues that are occuring with the IA2 and what has/had to be done to remedy the situations or keep it amongst a select few??? That's up to them. But give them the benefit of the doubt for at least showing they want to produce the best block they can possibly make and continue to make the chances needed to do that.

[Skip Fix]

Rob, I'm with you on there being a good block for us street/strip guys to have. I'm very grateful AP and others have brought these product to our small market. If they knwo new problemsand get feedback others may have the same issues(use "regular" Pontiac roller lifters) then they know it may be a change needed. When mine craps out it will be replaced with one of these, I'm also right now high 10s hoping to drop down in a new chassis. As you said machining an old block gets you almost to the price of the new better block, like aluminum heads.

Going into something new knowing all the work that will be needed is for a satisfied informed consumer.The AP guys are open and that is great for a manufacturer. I've had to fix many fit issues that ATI,Hedman etc have not stood behind. Hedman telling me my orignal 78 must have had the engine moved back was the biggest joke that I had to eat(I really needed that diameter header).

[Jim Zeek]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Steve Coombes:
Problem = Difficult matter

The fellow that dyno'd his motor last week and on the first pull it blew up due to a issue with the lifters galling into the lifter bores... I'll be less tacky and tell him he has a difficult matter... not a problem </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


The issue was not with the block or the lifters. It was due to the cam profile side loading the lifters. Lifter bores should have been bronze bushed then there would have been no problem. A BBC motor with the same type of cam profile had the same problem on the dyno with 4 lifters. Thats what happens when you build for every ounce of HP or with custom parts.