[Skip Fix]

Now if you can find me a 409 M/T crossram for less that a grand maybe we'll talk!

[Tom Vaught]

You like that one guys?

I have a "sister" to it sitting on the bench that was made by the same friend of mine. The front cross-over was modded to fit the late heads and was the most work.

Skip's Manifold has a tube with a "divit" to allow clearance with the lower part of the carb levers (AFB and Holley). My intake does not have the "divit" as I modify the Holley lever arms anyway to use the 427 Dual Quad lever arms.

My next cross ram will be a cut down piece that takes Weber side draft carbs.

If you look closely you can see the mounting pillar on the front of the intake cross-over to use the 65 Tri-power dual alternator brackets too.

Tom V.

[BruceWilkie]

The 59 SD aluminum tripower manifold looks the same as the iron intake I have now. Guess it saves weight. The Edelbrock P22 looks like my P65 except for the head flange/waterneck difference. That 5029 Offy looks interesting. The 5707 is probably what Im looking for. I lost my old Offy catalog but if I remember the plenum was taller and the runners were a straighter shot to the ports vs the low rise's slight uphill path. Also of interest to me is the 5756 competition dual spreadbore. I got some thermoquads I'd like to try on one of those. Thanks for your link Jon

[Geoff]

Bruce,
We keep hearing how bad the E'brock AFB's are [ not from me ], but yours have worked well. Maybe you got lucky, huh. I love my 800 AFB. I cannot fault it any way.

[carbking]

Originally Posted by Geoff

Bruce,
We keep hearing how bad the E'brock AFB's are [ not from me ], but yours have worked well. Maybe you got lucky, huh. I love my 800 AFB. I cannot fault it any way.

Geoff - carburetion can be anything from hiring a 15 year old to stand on the running board and pour gas into the engine out of a boot up to ??? The e-clones may be used if you don't have running boards

Most anything will "work" on most anything. The questions are, how well, and how long.

Jon.

[Big Chief 541]

Skip wont sell or trade his crossram ,is your's available?
Please e mail me when you get the chance. Thanks.
[email protected]

[BruceWilkie]

There are a few things with the Edelbrock AFB's that I dont like or have had issues with. #1 is the calibration out of the box may be fine for a 350 Chevy , but the manual choke versions are a little too rich and the echoke versions are too lean. They do tell you that one is calibrated for economy/emissions and the other for performance and what you see in the jetting specs for each looks like it is only a jetting/metering rod/spring change. You find out when you start looking at them that the air bleeds etc. are way different. Overall the manual choke versions are a better choice with the ebrocks. #2 the air valve weight balance is doesnt work to well on a single 4 Pontiac application and comes in to soon. usually anywhere from a pop too a big bog. #3 I have had needle seat issues (leaking) after about a years use. Edelbrocks standard replacement is worse. I havent tried their off road needle/seat assemblies yet.

Your 800"AFB" is an AVS. I havent tried the Ebrock version of the AVS and cant comment other than it is a step in the right direction. I have had good luck with the MOPAR versions from the late 60's early 70's. Im looking for a few cheap used ones.

I agree with Jon that the "Pontiac" AFB's are a better choice as well as the older Competition Series AFB's. The only thing I feel is an improvement on the Ebrocks is the accelerator pump and elimination of the pump/float well check valve . No more shrivelled leather cups or stuck check valve. Oh the Ebrocks are shinier too.

The main reason Im using them is because I have them. I got 2 of them FREE and my other 3 I paid $50.00 or less each. (The $50.0 one was a manual choke 750 that was on a 305 Chevy for 1 week essentially brand new. The owner claiming he'll never run an AFB again he bolted on a 600 cfm Holley vac secondary and thinks its great). The other carbs were suffering from maladjustment dirt and stupidity.

[carbking]

Originally Posted by BruceWilkie

The main reason Im using them is because I have them. I got 2 of them FREE.

Bruce - you paid too much!!!

As to the problems with the needles and seats leaking, I can't blame this on edelbrock. A couple of years ago, the company that makes the fuel valves eliminated the "staking" step in order to reduce costs (and reliability).

This goes for any new fuel valve: try staking the valve prior to use. This seems to help the new valves last longer.

As to the shriveled up leather accelerator pumps: this was a problem with some of the aftermarket kits which used other than "crown" leather for the accelerator pumps; not with the leather design. Again, the company making the pumps was reducing costs which is the reason we have neopreme pumps today. Today, in manufacturer quanties, the cost of a crown leather accelerator pump is more than 20 times the cost of the garbage neopreme pumps (yet the crown leather pump will last indefinately). We are making our own crown leather pumps for most applications.

There is an old saying that "you get what you pay for". Probably not totally true today. I have paraphrased the saying into "you don't get what you don't pay for". Unfortunately sometimes you also don't get what you do pay for.

Jon.

[Tom Vaught]

Quote:

"Skip wont sell or trade his crossram ,is your's available?"

I had the first manifold created, Skip saw the photos and said he wanted one too. After going through all of that effort why would I simply sell the thing? The unit is not for sale or trade.

The untouched "other unit" will be (as I mentioned) be modded for the weber side draft set-up I hope to run at some point.

The cross rams are still out there, I see them often if you are willing to pay the coin asked for them. I saw 4 of them at Norwalk last year.

Tom V.

[carbking]

We have one for sale.

Jon.

[Big Chief 541]

bothered you Tom, I will never make it to Norwalk, as travel of any length is out of the question for me. I would like to have a "bolt on" , but oh well.
I got my doug nash tunnel ram from Jon, I will give him a call.

[tempest455]

I keep hearing about the fact one carb or another carb works better on a Chevy vs. a Pontiac bla bla bla. I finally have to ask the question:

At a certain point of manifold vacuum (or lack thereof), head flow, cam, rpm range, intake design and a million other variables, a motor is a motor. Who cares what the make is?

Example: SBC “Chevy” motor with a sizeable roller cam, 12:1 (or more) compression that has 5” of vacuum at 1,000 RPM idle. Max HP at 7,000 RPM.

“Pontiac” 400 motor with a sizable roller cam, 12:1 (or more) compression that has 5” of vacuum at 1,000 RPM idle. Max HP at 7,000 RPM.

Both have the same gear and use a 5,000 RPM converter. How are these two motors going to require a completely different carb?

If the E’s are so bad, didn’t Dave Johnson w/ the White Warrior runs low 9’s on the motor with a pair?

Dave?

[tom s]

with ALL due respect Daves car leaves at RPM levels that MOST pontiac owners only DREAM about.If you leave at 7000 and shift at 8plus any carb will work.The thing we have been talking about is "street" carbs,leaving from a idle,going up and down the RPM range.ALL can be made to work but SOME work better in stock form.I have been running 2-4 intakes from pancake,med rise,high rise, tunnel rams and X rams on pontiac for 40 plus years.Pontiac,buick and some mopars "work" better in stock form than the late model Es and Cs AFBs.JMO,Tom

[speedshopmike]

a crossram just sold on ebay for about 600 bucks; it had no identifying marks, but was claimed to be a experimental 421 unit from pontiac.

a pic i saw in this month's issue of carcraft or the like of a mickey thompson unit looked like a better piece in terms of runner shaping, etc, from the little i could see.

anyway, this is just too funny:
"The other carbs were suffering from maladjustment dirt and stupidity."
good one, i needed the laugh.

i will gladly pay tuesday for crossram now.

[tom s]

I have only seen one pontiac X ram intake,made and sold by M/T.Tom

[BruceWilkie]

Glad you got a laugh. I laugh too when somebody puts .116 jets in all 4 corners of a 600 and then say the carb is crap. If they are willing to give it away or sell it cheap I'll take it.

[tempest455]

Tom, I understand this was a "street car" topic. However, extrapolate the above data for a Chevy vs. Pontiac “street” motor at lower RPM that operate under the same parameters. Get my point?

[carbking]

Dave - as Tom S. stated, we have been suggesting the Pontiac, some Buick, and some Mopar for street use; but even in some race applications, the same thing is true. Ask Troy about the difference in using Chevrolet airvalves vs Pontiac airvalves.

If one can develop a continuous variable ratio transmission so that the engine can run at a constant RPM, then any carb can be calibrated for the requirements at that RPM (although the calibration would probably still be off at different loads).

I have never said one carb cannot be recalibrated to work as well as another. It is just easier with some than with others.

I don't personally use the 1985 and newer AFB's whether they say Carter or Federal Mogul or Weber USA or Edelbrock (same thing) because of reliability issues, regardless of calibration. There are vast differences in the pre-1985 and post-1985 carburetors.

Jon.

[BruceWilkie]

What size Webers you planning on runnin TomV?

[Tom Vaught]

I looked at the Experimental Crossram in the completed items on e-bay.

That Chebby SS owner was probably laughing all the way to the bank with the money from that intake.

The M/T crossrams came in two ways:

With a part number (actually from what I have been told not a valid pontiac part number either). Used by Pontiac when racing in a class that required a part number.

Without a part number and sold by Mickey.

Both intakes are the same internally and externally except for the part number. Usually the scam is you have to pay more because my unit HAS a part number. LOL!

All of that experimental BS was just that BS.

So Jon if a guy found a pair of 65 Carter Carbs offered on the GTO or big car would those be the ones to use on a dual quad?

Tom V.

ps What size TQ did you send to Cliff?