[Lloyd-TX]

Originally Posted by gto4door

Makes me sick just to tell you this because now I wish I still had these cars. Back in 1995 I sold my very nice 75K orig mile '70 W-30 442 (auto) for $12,500 (quite a bit back then). When I was in the process of selling, I actually had two collectors beating down my door just to buy the car. In 1999, I sold my 83k orig mile '70 RA IV GTO (4spd) for $15,000 (still quite a bit back then). I had a lot of "tire kickers", but really nobody desparately wanting the car.

Wasn't that RA IV GTO a triple black car as well, John?

I still wish I had gotten a chance to drive it, or at least ride in it, LOL!

[70ra455]

These old "I used to have these cars" are killing me. It's conjuring up memories - very recent - of two that I sold because I wasn't driving them and figured it was time to let go.

A MINT 1970 1/2 Camaro Z/28 with 4spd. Gorgeous Classic Copper with white stripe with under 60K original miles. The only one I've seen with the little rubber rear bumper protectors still on it. Not a reproduced part. Sold either 3 or 4 summers ago for $18,500 when I thought it should get $21K but the Copper color turned off too many people.

A 1965 Pontiac Bonneville Convertible with 4spd 421 tripower HO and a/c, pw, posi, etc. I've only seen 3 other Bonnies with that drivetrain and this is the only one with a/c that I've seen. Nightwatch Blue over Blue with White top. A # 2.5 condition car and for less than 10K a solid #2 local show car. I got 32K for it 3 summers ago (2.5 years.)

But the good news is that I've still got my '70 GTO Convertible!

[judgeragtop]

Oldsmobile 442's were marketed as the executive hot rod. Most were loaded with A/C and 3:23 gearing. So the E/T times of the day for the most part dont show to well. Mine is a 1970 W-30, 4 speed, 391 W27, no PS or PB. I have taken it down the track twice. 13.89 and 13.42. Thats on polyglas without trying to tear the hell out of it. I havent had the Judge convt finished long enough to ring it out. My ragtop is a 391, no power steering or brake car either so it should be an interesting comparison.

I think the same reason the W-30's have increased in price are same reason the Judges have. Both were undervalued and neat looking cars that people didnt really know about. Camaro's and chevelles dont have surfboard decklid spoilers and ram air hoods in your face. Of course I am biased....

[Lloyd-TX]

Very, VERY nice yellow W30.

Gotta love the W27 aluminum diff option! Doctor Oldsmobile was TOO COOL!

[Lloyd-TX]

Originally Posted by 70ra455

These old "I used to have these cars" are killing me. It's conjuring up memories - very recent - of two that I sold because I wasn't driving them and figured it was time to let go.

A MINT 1970 1/2 Camaro Z/28 with 4spd. Gorgeous Classic Copper with white stripe with under 60K original miles. The only one I've seen with the little rubber rear bumper protectors still on it. Not a reproduced part. Sold either 3 or 4 summers ago for $18,500 when I thought it should get $21K but the Copper color turned off too many people.

A 1965 Pontiac Bonneville Convertible with 4spd 421 tripower HO and a/c, pw, posi, etc. I've only seen 3 other Bonnies with that drivetrain and this is the only one with a/c that I've seen. Nightwatch Blue over Blue with White top. A # 2.5 condition car and for less than 10K a solid #2 local show car. I got 32K for it 3 summers ago (2.5 years.)

But the good news is that I've still got my '70 GTO Convertible!

I really haven't owned any rare or super hi-po machines until very recently. It's cool hearing stories from those who have.

About that Z28 - nothing sounds quite like a high-compression solid-lifter small block!

[70ram4]

I will be looking to sell my O.O. 1970 Judge conv 4speed next spring , currently leaving for nut and bolt concourse restoration, we will see what it does in price. btw I've owned quite a few 1970 gto 455, 4 speed conv's and hardtops as well as a ram air iv, 4 speed car, and a properly tuned 455 is a beast on the street.

[TJH]

Originally Posted by 70ram4

Hoping for worlds record number for ram iii judge rag.

So, I suppose that $600 for a true NOS Judge front spoiler wouldn't be out of line.
Yes- I have one (but it's not technically for sale)...

Phil- gotta get together sometime soon. Have a new acquisition that I hope will eventually shed some light on the D-port vs round-port 455 HO debate.

[scott70]

Theres a # matching 73 SD455 formula firebird on ebay right now i'd love to have.....$65,000 right now.

[north]

my three or four cents on this thread:

back in the early 80's i owned several of the models discussed, they were all unmessed with original cars with bone stock engines and automatic drivetrains (all sold at prices i would rather forget):

1972 455 (non HO) GTO - good low rpm pull but lousy horsepower, not much better than the later EGR-smogger engines.

1970 GTO 455 - nice torque but weak in the upper half of the RPM range, no quicker than a regular 350hp GTO of same year and driveline but a sweet cruiser with nice midrange

1970 442 W-30 - very sweet engine, great pull from 70-100 but not as strong top end as like say a good ram air 3, gotta love those hood scoops !!! they say size doesn't matter but the GTO hood looks a little plain and A cuppish next to those DD's

1970 GS stage 1 - mine and others i rode in back then honestly did not feel any stronger than the W-30, still a nice sounding and feeling engine if you can get past the grandma looks of the car (i couldn't).

i think the trick to the high end powered cars was super tuning,the stock tuning, exhaust etc did not let the better internals translate into much better installed performance, all these types of high end cars (LS6's included) had many period road tests (disregarding obvious ringer cars) with the same or worse trap speeds than their base engine counterparts. as an example a freind of mine special ordered a 69 hemi charger with an automatic and it only ran in the mid 90's brand new at the local track, he got tail-lighted by cars that had HP ratings and MSRP's that started with 2's!! he sold it pretty darn quick .

a problem area for all the gm 455's was that their crank-rods-oiling etc were not up to the better top end capabilities, lot's of poncho, olds and especially buick 455's ended up as boat anchors or feed stock for toyotas.

i don't want to sound like i am dumping on these cars, they were all fun, powerful mid-range beasts that for the average non racer driver felt much quicker than the 400ish cid engines of the 60's due to that fat torque curve. i had a '02 Z06 a few years ago and it would badly trailer any of these stock muscle cars but on the street it felt slower unless you beat it brutally. that was the beauty of cubes: instant on demand thrust

[70ra455]

Paul ... NOOOOOO! Oh well I hope you make a killing on it. I wish you would have taken my bet that you were selling. I knew it. Oh well. I could have won a bundle.

Tom ... I'll give you a call and I hope your feeling better. I've been laid up on crutches with a swollen left foot for the past 4 days (hence my many posts!)

Later.

[70ra455]

OK ... Now your opinions on the value of my '70 455 RA 4spd Convertible vs. a '72 Buick Stage 1 4spd convert (assume same condition and option level.)

Thanks

Phil

[70ram4]

Hey Phil I talk alot of crap but we will see what the car brings , it's only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. I think your car should be worth 150k .It's the only 1 of 2 I've ever heard of and you know I had that burgundy conv ram air auto car( and I only heard of 4 of them and that car is worth alot)

[P@blo]

I don't care what it's worth as long as I can blow the doors off of it.

[70ra455]

I still wish you would have taken my bet! Good luck and let me know what it brings!

[442w30]

Originally Posted by 70ra455

I have the opportunity to buy a '71 W-30 convertible 4spd with a/c for about 35K - 40K ...

The problem with that is 4-speeds were not available with AC due to the cam, which was more radical than the automatics. I know RAIII cars substituted a milder cam with the auto or AC, but Olds decided not to do the cam switch for the 4-speed.

And that brings to light another issue with the 4-speed: Which is faster? I believe the 4-speed cars were built to be modified with headers. The autos, with the milder cam, were engineered to remain more stock. Hence, 4-speed cars are a bit too radical for the street, and a good automatic would probably beat a 4-speed, stock for stock.

However, when it comes to '70 W-30 ragtops, the 4-speeds outpace the autos in value by a lot. Sure, the production is rarer (96 vs 168), but sometimes rarity doesn't make a difference (see Judge ragtops).

In comparison to a 455 HO GTO, I don't think there's any comparison. The W-30 rag is in a completely different league. I believe a W-30 rag would wedge between a RAIII and RAIV rag in desirability and value. If someone thinks they're outpacing GTOs, I think this is just an impression and not the truth. For one thing, with everything going crazy, collectors are going for the Tier 3 musclecars like the W-30 rags right now. The Tier 2 Judge ragtops have already gone crazy, and the Tier 1 Hemicudas have been out of this world for awhile. Just a theory . . .

[Judge273]

Here are a couple from Hemmings last month.

Seller Notes:
455 HO RAM AIR GTO Convertible #1 condition. Frame off restored with no expense spared.19 options This is an extremely rare PHS documented car. In 1970 GM made 241, 455 convertibles with automatic transmission. This GTO has the seldom seen 455 RAM AIR option. Considering this ultra-rare color combination combined with the 455 Ram Air option, this is probably the only one of its kind ever made.This car was produced in Pontiac, Michigan in early October of 1969. It has since undergone an extensive and complete frame-off rotisserie restoration with no bolt left unturned. The restoration is concourse, National Show quality level. The car is fully documented, complete with PHS (Pontiac Historical Services) documentation and original build sheets. This is a 100% numbers matching car. This car with its extremely rare and desirable Ram Air option makes it a valuable and important example of American Muscle Car history. $250,000 610 436 9171 [email protected]

Seller Notes:
All original numbers matching. Z code, California survivor. Not a parts car. Never any rust or accidents. Complete P.H.S. documents. All receipts and photos of ground up restoration. Professionally done. No expense spared. 455 H.O. convertible.One of 241 made. Turbo 400, A/C, disc brakes, posi-trac rear, bucket seats, tilt, remote, console and more. Palomino Copper w / sandalwood interior. 11-K paint job. This is a rare and beautiful GTO. If you haven't driven a 70 big block,I strongly recommend it. $197,000 310-530-2353 web.mac.com/drewberlin

[442w30]

I like it how he says "ultra-rare color combo" but no mention of what it is.

[Judge273]

Let's talk about rare...this GTO was one of only 241 ever produced,it's new Sierra Yellow exterior is complimented by it's original Saddle interior/boot & it has a new White soft top, this has had a nice restoration in a very sympathetic way keeping it's survivor quality,it was delivered new to Quebedeaux Pontiac in Tuscon Arizona on 10/26/69,it has all it's original perfect body panels & floors,equipped w/the potent #'s matching 455 H.O.motor w/360 HP & having factory ice cold Air Conditioning,Turbo Hydromatic Automatic,Varible Power steering,Power Disc brakes,soft ray glass,Rally II wheels,center console,under hood lamp,Cruise Control,rally wheels,AM-FM pushbutton 4 speaker stereo,it has a full PHS documented report,it runs like new & looks it too,this bad boy likes to leave rubber where ever you want,grab one quick before they are $150K... $75,000



Dealer Notes:

114 BUILT!!!! GENUINE, DOCUMENTED, NUMBERS MATCHING RAM AIR III. SAME AS THE JUDGE BUT 1/3 THE PRICE. ALWAYS A TEXAS CAR. ONE OWNER PAST 20 YEARS. RUST FREE ORIGINAL SHEET METAL. GROUND UP RESTORATION. WE HAVE PHOTOS OF THE FRONT CLIP AND ENGINE REMOVED DURING RESTORATION. MOTOR, TRANS, REAR AND SUSPENSION REBUILT. SMOOTH CLEAN FACTORY FLOORS AND FRAME. QUALITY PAINT WITH EXCELLENT RUBBER, GLASS, CHROME, ETC. DETAILED ENGINE AND TRUNK COMPARTMENTS. INTERIOR RESTORED WITH GM UPHOLSTERY NOT REPRODUCTION. TOP UPGRADED TO A RICH BLACK CANVAS. A TIGHT, STRAIGHT CAR. HAS BUILD SHEET AND PHS DOCUMENTATION. HIGHLY OPTIONED INCLUDING RARE AIR CONDITIONING. THESE RAM AIR GTO PRICES ARE GOING SKY HIGH. THIS ONE HAS GREAT POTENTIAL FOR PROFIT. NO MONEY DOWN OR UP TO 144 MONTHS FINANCE TERMS AVAILABLE . $79,998


The one for 250K is a burgandy/black top/red int is in the picture:

[70ra455]

These numbers are nuts. Maybe I'll sell and just buy me a mint '68 4spd convert for 40K and a mint '67 GP 428 4spd convert for another 40K and pocket the other $$$$.

I hope the Burgandy Convert gets all his money BUT as I've been saying on these boards for the past few weeks ... prices are coming down HARD and I don't think they'll get it. The yellow car sold on ebay 3 years ago for 25K or less! It's been around the selling block a bunch of times.

[north]

i guess this confirms what has been true all along, collectors pay for "pinnacle" cars. in other words collectors pay for what was the most "in" of their day.
just like duesenbergs and the like were the ultimate prewar cars and big finned caddies were the ultimate in the 50's, musclecars were the ultimate in that era.
compare the value of a 69 plymouth hemi roadrunner to that of a 69 cadillac convertible, then think about the value of a 55 top end caddy convertible versus a 55 plymouth sedan!! pretty big reversal, which reflected what popular culture had decided back then what was "in".
so if muscle cars were "it" in the sixties what were the most desirable qualities to have in a muscle car? in a way most of them are the same as in earlier era's, good looking, fast, rare, and letting everyone know you've got the best:
1..convertible (so people could see it was you)
2..big cubes and big advertised horsepower (numbers matter)
3..rarity due to high initial cost, impractical drive trains etc (which are not a negative for the collector)
4..flashy factory installed visuals such as color, scoops, wings, stripes, etc. (let you ride the sharp edge between tacky and wow)
5..valid steet credibility and savvy marketing push when new (you wanted the car that the kids wanted but couldn't get)

if you think about it most cars have some of these and not others, for example early gto's are strong in #5, so-so in #2 and weak in #4. 69-70 judges are strong #4 but so-so in the rest. A 69 hemi car by contrast is strong on #2, 3, 4, and 5 and hence the prices. cars like 69-70 judges, w-30's etc fit in the middle somewhere and early 70's (low compression and low HP) and early (65-68) "regular" non gto muscle cars will have limited values because they score low on too many of the above criteria.