[Tom Vaught]

Mark @ Luhn Performance started his design with input I provided from work
The pick-up tube diameter was originally a 1" tube used on the Aston Martin V-12 Engines. (vs the stock Pontiac tube diameter of .730" outside diameter).
When the Aston Martin parts dried up, Mark found the Ford Cobra engine pick-up tubes.
Mark's machined aluminum pick-ups are the best design to date.

Tom V.

[Giffels]

No sir, no oil issues ever under acceleration. Only way it can starve in straight line is hard braking.

Originally Posted by Steve C.

What Is The Proper Clearance Needed Between The Oil Pickup And Oil Pan?

"You can calculate the clearance by measuring the internal pan depth and measuring the distance from the block's pan rails to pickup bottom. The difference between the two measurements will provide the pickup to pan clearance. Gaskets will add some additional clearance. Here are some recommended pickup to pan clearances: Ford Pans- 5/16-3/8 inch (.312-.375) Chevy Pans- 5/16-3/8 inch (.312-.375) All Others 5/16-3/8 inch (.312-.375). Deep sump pan pickups are submerged deeper into the oil are less sensitive to clearances. Deep sumps may have clearance up to a 1/2 inch."

Source: Canton Racing Products

Curious, any drop in pressure going straight ? Moving along in say second gear with the RPM steady then stab the throttle can you see the oil pressure drop about 20 or so pounds for an instant, then quickly recover ?


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[PontiacJim1959]

Originally Posted by Giffels

No sir, no oil issues ever under acceleration. Only way it can starve in straight line is hard braking.

Use a stock Pontiac pan with a built in baffle - 1973 and up.

Extend the pan.
Add a baffle to the back of the pan so the oil does not climb up the back wall.
Use a Butler Pro 60PSI blueprinted oil pump that provides more volume.
Use an extended oil pump pick up like the Moroso pickup.
Measure the distance between the bottom of the pick up and pan. 3/8" is ideal.

The pick up will be deep into the extra oil. Baffles should keep the oil where it needs to be. End of problem.

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by PontiacJim1959

Use a stock Pontiac pan with a built in baffle - 1973 and up.

In 99 out of 100 Pontiac Enthusiasts who are drivikng their cars on the street what you posted would work great.

In a very early post, Jim, the OP says he is road racing this Pontiac engine and already bought a advertised Road Race pan which is not doing the job for him.

So we are trying to understand why the Canton Road Race oil pan is not doing the job as advertised. Road race guys make right hand and LEFT HAND turns on the race track and sometimes on the street (parking lots with Pylon track markers).

Just bringing you up to speed on the thread. Have a great day my friend.

Tom V.

[Steve C.]

A fwiw, for some interesting observations read thru this entire thread regarding the Butler Pro Pump.....

" I changed my oil pump to the Butler Pro 60 psi pump and been fighting it for 3 days now."

https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...utler+Pro+Pump


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[Tom Vaught]

It has been interesting to go back a few years and review some of the improvements to the stock Pontiac Oil Pump (modded by Luhn Performance). I posted a picture of his latest Oil Pump Pick-up design in a previous post. #39

Here is the link to the Luhn oil Pump website. http://www.luhnperformance.com/pontiac.html

I have to smile when I see the Part Numbers for the Various Modified Pumps. http://www.luhnperformance.com/pontiac.html#pacemaker

Thanks Mark. Nice pictures of the mods he made previously to the Melling Oil Pumps prior to his Latest "Elevator Shaft"
(my name for it) Oil Pick-up and Screen design.

Tom V.

[Skip Fix]

Originally Posted by PontiacJim1959

Use a stock Pontiac pan with a built in baffle - 1973 and up.

Extend the pan.
Add a baffle to the back of the pan so the oil does not climb up the back wall.
Use a Butler Pro 60PSI blueprinted oil pump that provides more volume.
Use an extended oil pump pick up like the Moroso pickup.
Measure the distance between the bottom of the pick up and pan. 3/8" is ideal.

The pick up will be deep into the extra oil. Baffles should keep the oil where it needs to be. End of problem.

Man that looks hard to snake the pan on during installation!

[Tom Vaught]

It most likely DOES turn the oil back into the pan on Acceleration runs though, vs climbing the rear of the oil pan. Tom V.

[PontiacJim1959]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

In 99 out of 100 Pontiac Enthusiasts who are drivikng their cars on the street what you posted would work great.

In a very early post, Jim, the OP says he is road racing this Pontiac engine and already bought a advertised Road Race pan which is not doing the job for him.

So we are trying to understand why the Canton Road Race oil pan is not doing the job as advertised. Road race guys make right hand and LEFT HAND turns on the race track and sometimes on the street (parking lots with Pylon track markers).

Just bringing you up to speed on the thread. Have a great day my friend.

Tom V.

Nope, I am up to speed. Picture shows the oil level depth of 6 quarts of oil with the extended pan. Note the marked lines on the tape. Those are the levels of the oil with the stock pan and you can see the difference in the level between the stock 5 quarts and present 6 quart level. Still can add more oil to bring it up to the stock 5 quart level - so at that depth, and the extended oil pick up, I would think the pick up would be covered in left/right turns on a road course with what baffles are shown, and a crank scraper that'll extend from the pan edge to keep oil from riding up the side.

Another photo is of a Mopar pan with added baffle that is a little more coverage to keep oil in the pan.

I am not convinced it is a pan issue since it is a road race pan and should have baffles where needed. The OP also stated he added an extra quart to the already 6 quart pan - so it was overfilled and in most cases can cure the issue.

I have seen YouTube videos for the Accusump used for such type driving, but what they don't show/tell is if the oil pan found on the car being used as a demo has the stock pan or a road racing type pan - my guess is a stock pan which would better demonstrate the need for the Accusump.

What has not been asked is where he picks up his oil pressure. I would tap my line at the oil feed next to the distributor if that has not already been done. I think this might provide a more accurate reading.

Seeing the OP has 60PSI that drops to 30PSI in a right turn, and when he lets up off the gas, it returns to 60PSI, maybe excessive clearance/worn thrust bearing surface as the crank moves forward/backward?

How about installing an AIR BALANCE TUBE between the pan area and a valve cover to help balance air pressure in the pan and allow the oil to easily flow back into the pan? Just a thought.

On the same line of thought, how is the breather/PCV valve set-up?

[PontiacJim1959]

Originally Posted by Skip Fix

Man that looks hard to snake the pan on during installation!

LOL, no problem at all with the engine out. The Milodon pick-up is small and I notched the back wall baffle so it goes on quite easily, no fighting.

[Giffels]

Oil pressure is coming from the port next to the distributor.

let me be more clear for the lifting off throttle topic - I was saying this only to reiterate that I was not staying full throttle with dropping oil pressure. The pressure only comes back up once you are out of the corner or slow down. Everything in the motor is about 3,000 miles old, change oil religiously and no signs of any bearing material ever in it or the filter.

Running 2 breathers on the valve covers and a valley pan PCV with a ME Wagner adjustable PCV - this is routed back into the intake. I was considering maybe its an excess crank case pressure issue with the stroker bottom end potentially but nothing else would suggest this (no oil being blown out or smoke). I dont think it could make enough pressure to push the oil away from the pickup or stop it from returning to the pan.

Originally Posted by PontiacJim1959

Nope, I am up to speed. Picture shows the oil level depth of 6 quarts of oil with the extended pan. Note the marked lines on the tape. Those are the levels of the oil with the stock pan and you can see the difference in the level between the stock 5 quarts and present 6 quart level. Still can add more oil to bring it up to the stock 5 quart level - so at that depth, and the extended oil pick up, I would think the pick up would be covered in left/right turns on a road course with what baffles are shown, and a crank scraper that'll extend from the pan edge to keep oil from riding up the side.

Another photo is of a Mopar pan with added baffle that is a little more coverage to keep oil in the pan.

I am not convinced it is a pan issue since it is a road race pan and should have baffles where needed. The OP also stated he added an extra quart to the already 6 quart pan - so it was overfilled and in most cases can cure the issue.

I have seen YouTube videos for the Accusump used for such type driving, but what they don't show/tell is if the oil pan found on the car being used as a demo has the stock pan or a road racing type pan - my guess is a stock pan which would better demonstrate the need for the Accusump.

What has not been asked is where he picks up his oil pressure. I would tap my line at the oil feed next to the distributor if that has not already been done. I think this might provide a more accurate reading.

Seeing the OP has 60PSI that drops to 30PSI in a right turn, and when he lets up off the gas, it returns to 60PSI, maybe excessive clearance/worn thrust bearing surface as the crank moves forward/backward?

How about installing an AIR BALANCE TUBE between the pan area and a valve cover to help balance air pressure in the pan and allow the oil to easily flow back into the pan? Just a thought.

On the same line of thought, how is the breather/PCV valve set-up?

[Giffels]

Another update, spoke with Darrin from nitemare performance and have one of his oil pan kits on the way. He supplys it with a new pump and custom pickup as well.

After speaking with a few people and a few different pans figured I would give the nitemare option a try. Will keep everyone posted when it shows up and if it cures it (Fingers crossed)

[HWYSTR455]

That's why I was bringing up the volume thing before. You go to external lines that are larger in diameter, and possibly even a 2 filter setup, you need more volume being pumped.

I recall the conversation we had steve c., and the pump thing.


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[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

That's why I was bringing up the volume thing before. You go to external lines that are larger in diameter, and possibly even a 2 filter setup, you need more volume being pumped.

I recall the conversation we had steve c., and the pump thing.


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Oil Volume "displaced" does not change in a stock or dual filter installation.
Dual filters just increase the filter area before they get plugged and lower the pressure drop across the filters. If the oil pump pushes 10 gallons of oil thru the inlet of the dual filters, then 10 gallons exits the two dual filters prior to going into the engine. The pressure drop across the filters is lower but the flow stays the same.

Tom V.

If you have oil drain back into the pan the volume change in the lines takes a bit longer to fill them.

[Steve C.]

Regarding the Melling series of Pontiac oil pumps Butler states: Maximum oil flow on a stock-type 60- or 80-psi pump with a stock pickup screen is usually 12-13 gallons per minute (gpm).
As a comparison the Luhn Performance oil pump has a taller gear set from a BBC high volume pump which at 6000 engine rpm flows 19.13 gal/min.

Precision states the stock Melling is 11-12 gpm. With their blueprinted oil pumps, during their modifications they go thru the internal passages and 'clean' out the flashing and rate them at about 15 gallons per minute.

http://stores.precisionoilpumps.com/pontiac/

Nitemare Performance takes the Melling select pumps and adds their heavy plate, that's it. When asked how many gallons per minute flow, the answer is " I have no idea".

http://www.nitemareperformance.com/h...20oilpump.html
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[4zpeed]

Originally Posted by Steve C.

When asked how many gallons per minute flow, the answer is " I have no idea".

Wow, I started to laugh, but that ain't funny.

Thank's for the links and spreading info.

The OP should inquire about that.

Edit - Or should I say confront..



Frank

[Steve C.]

Oil pressure is dependent upon many things. Volume is the other consideration, the amount of oil that flows through the engine is again dependent upon the application.

Is one more important than the other ?

The faster the pump turns, the greater the flow of oil to the engine resulting in more pressure. Think of placing your thumb over the end of a garden hose. The flow of water coming out of the hose is constant but as you press your thumb against the end of the hose the flow is restricted. As you press harder, the pressure against your thumb and the pressure inside the hose goes up.

You can Google up more


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[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by Giffels

Another update, spoke with Darrin from nitemare performance and have one of his oil pan kits on the way. He supplys it with a new pump and custom pickup as well.

After speaking with a few people and a few different pans figured I would give the nitemare option a try. Will keep everyone posted when it shows up and if it cures it (Fingers crossed)

Here is pics of the pan I got from Steffs. VERY nice pan. You can see the baffles and trap doors. This is the race modle with the built in windage tray and a big kickout on the passenger side.
That kickout gives the oil some place to go. A lot of people just put a scrapper on a stock type pan and the oil just goes down the side of the pan and right back on the crank.
They added a dipstick provision and a 1/8" shielded bung for a vacuum sensor at no charge.
But I forgot to ask for 2 more holes and will have to do them myself. They sent me the weld in bungs no charge.
One will be for a oil temp sensor down low in the oil and the other 3/8 pipe bung above the oil in case I ever wanted to run a return line from the heads back to the pan.
Someone recommended a #10 line in a earlier post but that is way too big. No need for it.

[Dragncar]

Now I am sure the nightmare pan is nice but there is one issue with it. And people are trying to tell you about it. The pickup dia is a tad to small for 100% efficiency.
I am building my own pickup with advice from Luhn. Part #s for pickup to chop up.
This pickup is one you can enlarge your pump to .814 and press in. The others that Luhn now uses are in the 1" range and too large to just bore your pump out. So they have to do machine work so it all bolts on.
This is something you can do yourself without major machine work. I have a thread I will re start about it but these are the parts.

[Steve C.]

Of interest, similar Mustang Cobra oil pick up's here:

https://www.google.com/search?q=Must...w=1277&bih=903


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