[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

I still don't understand why someone would bother checking total timing and not initial,
.

Since this thread has swung all over the place I can't determine who that refers to. But in a nutshell, when an engine is run on the dyno, total timing is really the only thing you're concerned with, to find the spot where the engine makes best power. The rest of it is up to the end user to determine what the car likes best because there are way too many variables that will change the requirements, none of which can be found on an engine dyno.

You'll have to change initial timing to suit the car by modifying the breaker plate, the rate of the curve will likely need to be slowed down a bit, and the vacuum advance adds more to the equation after everything else is nailed down. None of that has been posted that I can find. This stuff has to be done once in the car. If it's still an MSD distributor this stuff is very simple to do once put in service, and they even provide a chart to follow.

There really isn't enough information provided here on the users end that I can find that can determine a cause for anything one way or another. I haven't seen any timing numbers posted, I have seen compression test numbers posted or how the test was done. Just saying they are low doesn't tell anyone anything. Is there a post here somewhere with this information that I am missing??

And Paul is well aware of the rod issues when it comes to cranks with BBC rod journals and aftermarket rods in these Pontiacs. It's been a problem in the aftermarket for quite some time. That area has been addressed so you guys are going after a dead end there.

[HWYSTR455]

When I set initial timing, I set it at 12, and that was at idle. Paul specifically mentioned to me directly that the 18 degree black bushing was in place. The note with the engine stated to ensure max timing was no more than 34 degrees. That was determined on the dyno. And agree with your comments, no way you can determine a curve on a dyno, HAS to be in the car and by trial.

In the one vid, I noticed they were holding the RPM around 3-3500, and setting the timing. That's where my comments are directed. IMO, that's pointless, and can cause initial to be off (EDIT: for example, if total doesn't come in until 4k). On the second vid, when cranking, it struggled, hence my thoughts of it being too advanced. (initial)

Vacuum can has been plugged this entire time.

BBC rod journals are actually smaller, so there would be more likely to be an issue using a factory crank/stroke. Or at least that's my line of thought. (correct me if I'm off there)

Clay, in that second pic in your last post, you can see the counterweights on the crank have been clearanced, that appears to be an aftermarket crank, in the previous post, those clearanced areas are not present. I suspect it's possible on that second post, that clearanced crank was ment to be used with 6.70 rods. That may have been the issue there. But just guessing it's a possibility.

.

[chiphead]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

And Paul is well aware of the rod issues when it comes to cranks with BBC rod journals and aftermarket rods in these Pontiacs. It's been a problem in the aftermarket for quite some time. That area has been addressed so you guys are going after a dead end there.

How do you know this has been addressed in this build? Have you been inside this engine? Do you have documentation of the parts used and clearances in question in this engine?

The shop that built the engine may be aware of proper clearances required, but are these clearances DOCUMENTED anywhere for this build? Typically you want at least .060" between the bottom of the piston and the crank counterweight. Autotec pistons want at least .050" side clearance between rod small end and pin boss of piston.

I had to have my aftermarket rods narrowed .045" on the small end to clear my autotec pistons. Eagle 6.8" rods and Scat 4" forged 3" main crank. Mine are BBC rods, and the rod offset isn't perfect when rods are used a Pontiac.

http://racetecpistons.com/media/pdf/...STRUCTIONS.pdf

Hard facts are in short supply in this thread. It's nigh impossible to give good advise unless you know things like dimensions of crank/rod/piston, piston material, compression test readings, all bottom end clearances, etc. All we've got here is a bunch of short youtube vids of a noisy motor and a room full of guys playing 20 questions. (myself included). Questions get raised that don't get run to ground. For example, sometime back there was a picture of very suspect valve adjustment, and several members questioned it. I don't recall seeing an answer or explanation about it. (The questionable poly-lock heights.)

If this was my motor, I would have resolved all valve setting and tuning issues first. Next would be a good compression test. If it continued to make noise and run like crap, it would be out and apart on my stand, while I verify all clearances in conjunction with the builder. Since Joe can't do this himself, he's going to have to have somebody do it for him. I'm sure he doesn't want to, but it's likely got to come out again, unless somebody finds something stupid in-car.

It's a sad state of affairs, because this sort of thing turns new guys off on the car hobby. It's not supposed to be this miserable. But it can be.

[455GRIN]

Agree cut oil filter open. Almost sounds like cam lobe going flat. Catch it now by looking inside filter.
Frustrating.

[Va68goat]

68 461 Bird,
I have so much to say to your comment but none of it is going to make the motor right. I know one thing...I'm not willing to walk away...thats for sure. I have no idea what the next step is. Honestly, everything I'm willing to do and pay for has been done.

[TedRamAirII]

I'm confused about "warranty", it was my ASSUMPTION that is was a warranty matter. Like, "Ship it here and we will fix it", period. Any parts replacement and testing/ verifying the repair should have been at their expense. But, I think, once you took it upon yourself to take the engine apart, that may have nullified any warranty. Problems were found, and repaired, but the main problem has been missed. The builder claims all is well? if so, run it. Get their permission in writing, that the "Engine operates as designed". I hate to say it, but if they refuse to remedy the issue at hand, get it fixed and take them to court. I know that's the last thing you or they want, but what other remedy is there? They claim that they fixed it. I would think they would have their own Engine Run Stand, to make sure all is well, and not depend on a Dyno Operator, look at output, check for oil leaks, then ship it, especially knowing what a ordeal this engine has been for you, and them. I sure would have been in that dyno room, after the session, listening to it idle for 30 minutes. I withhold judgement until the problem is remedied. I know the first priority is getting the engine FIXED! If there truly was no knocking at the Dyno room, then all needs to be checked. I once had a Buick that had a slight knock, and you could feel it in the oil pan, like a crank weight was slightly rubbing the pan. I could use a wooden hammer handle and push on the pan and make it louder. The guy decided he would live with it, since it was a ordeal to pull it. I wonder if a Tech was hired, that knew nothing of this ordeal, to find the cause of this noise, what steps he would do to find it. Certainly the steps that have been taken would be included, but one has to go deeper. Has a Slow Motion Video been taken? to see if its Crankshaft Speed, or every other revolution? that certainly would be the first fork in the road. Did anyone manually spin the oil pump shaft while the distributor was out? I certainly would, to feel for any abnormality, I usually use a Speed Handle. A Vacuum Gauge would certainly indicate a valve issue. A shop with a Ignition Scope and a Cylinder Pressure Transducer would be next, because of the rough misfire. When this is found, we will all be kicking ourselves, I'm sure.

[tom s]

Its a hyd roller cam!Never seen one go flat?Tom

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by tom s

Its a hyd roller cam!Never seen one go flat?Tom

I guess it's possible but I've never seen one do it, not even OE hydraulic roller cams.

[TedRamAirII]

Originally Posted by hurryinhoosier62

I guess it's possible but I've never seen one do it, not even OE hydraulic roller cams.

Maybe you should talk to some Dealer Techs. Lot of Dodge roller issues. https://hemimdslifters.com/

[Va68goat]

Sun Tuned,
At this point I'm not willing to pay any additonal money to have this repaired. If Paul or Jeff want to pay...I'd be willing to accept that. I never received what I paid a lot of money for. I know this thread is exhausting to deal with but this whole thing was just wrong.

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by TedRamAirII

Maybe you should talk to some Dealer Techs. Lot of Dodge roller issues. https://hemimdslifters.com/

Ted, in my experience I've never seen it, but I have been retired for several years. Refer back to the beginning of my post..."It's possible". Did you bother to read the attachment.....FROZEN LIFTER ROLLERS, NOT bad cam cores.

[TedRamAirII]

Originally Posted by hurryinhoosier62

Ted, in my experience I've never seen it, but I have been retired for several years. Refer back to the beginning of my post..."It's possible". Did you bother to read the attachment.....FROZEN LIFTER ROLLERS, NOT bad cam cores.

Sorry if I got the wrong idea. You stated you never saw a flat roller cam. A bad roller will surely flatten a lobe.

[Va68goat]

Mike Davis,
Paul built this motor and he said he recently tore this motor down. I don't know if that was checked or not after he found what he thought was the smoking gun of the damaged distributor bushing.

64speed,
I didn't pay with a credit card but thats not the end of the world either. For right now, I'm just wanting to get this motor right so I can enjoy it. Everything else can be handled at another time. The good thing is that even though Paul has gone ghost, Jeff sent me a text and said he located someone that can look at the motor.

[68 461 Bird]

Originally Posted by Va68goat

Jeff sent me a text and said he located someone that can look at the motor.

Good news!

[grivera]

Originally Posted by Va68goat

Mike Davis,
Jeff sent me a text and said he located someone that can look at the motor.

Did he say who or when?

[grivera]

Picture of Joe’s cam/lifters. Not sure when it was photographed- Joe?

[jonmachota78]

I've been thinking since the very beginning this sounds like a bad lifter. I know the lifters have been replaced but that doesn't mean you don't have another bad lifter. It has happened to me!

[grivera]

Originally Posted by jonmachota78

I've been thinking since the very beginning this sounds like a bad lifter. I know the lifters have been replaced but that doesn't mean you don't have another bad lifter. It has happened to me!

I had same concerns with a Joe. Considering the history of this engine it would be nice to have a video of it idling on in dyno room.

["QUICK-SILVER"]

Originally Posted by jonmachota78

I've been thinking since the very beginning this sounds like a bad lifter. I know the lifters have been replaced but that doesn't mean you don't have another bad lifter. It has happened to me!

Messy job but I think I'd have to get the palm of my hand on the rockers just to see before swinging the engine to look inside.

Definately needs ruled out before the exploratory surgery begins.

Clay

[Va68goat]

The picture of the cam is from August 5, 2018.

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