[1971/455/HO/4-SPD]

Originally Posted by 74 SD455 Formula

Ask NJSTEVE He is a PY member here.This issue has come up several times in the past.I believe he may be an attornry of some sort and reboding a car is a very sore subject with him.I'm not saying I aggree with doing a rebody,but I would like to know how it is legal to register a dynacore 1969 Camaro body or the 67 Mustang body and have it be legal,but not be able to rebody a 1970 T/A or so on and so on.You get the picture.How would you feel about buying a 1973 SD 455 T/A with a Salage title ? That's almost as bad. JMO

Jim:

I think they would handle those newly made camaro and mustang bodies like kit cars and give them a state assigned VIN. I agree with you completely that in almost every case, if you remove the VIN plate, Date Tag, etc. It's a re-body and therefore in my eyes illegal. People will try to use the lost title companies out there to get a clean title on a salvage car, etc. I don't agree with it in any case scenario (re-body). The shop that did my 69 1/2 6bbl Roadrunner was restoring a 70 Cuda 440-6bbl Convertible and they literally replaced every piece of sheetmetal on the car other than the firewall, and radiator support because it was so rusty just to stay away from the re-body issue......... It will cost a lot more, but you still have the original car with a lot of donor parts!

[Jerry H.]

I don't really want to open up the whole rebody issue here, but let me play devils advocate here. Suppose you wreck a late model pickup. The major damage is in the cab and bed. So, the body shop replaces the entire cab and bed. The 'vin' has the be changed over, right? This is done every day and is done legally. There must be some exception to the law that allows this. What if the frame was warped and the frame was replace also?

[dr-doug]

The pictures in HPP show that the '70 judge vert IV car that was finished last year was a very careful blend of the original car and a lemans. There is legal, acceptable, and everything else. DW

[Bet Winner]

Originally Posted by dr-doug

The pictures in HPP show that the '70 judge vert IV car that was finished last year was a very careful blend of the original car and a lemans. There is legal, acceptable, and everything else. DW

Which car was this?

[Judge273]

The rebody issue is not as clear cut as "it is illegal". Clearly, big money cars that were sold at BJ were shown on national TV as rebody cars. Which in essence is retagging the car, and no documentation to back up it to show it is done legally.

Like Doug, Jim, and Mike said it is all in the wording these days as to skirt the legal issue.

[dr-doug]

I don't get the speed channel, so I didn't get to see any of this..but they actually sold cars as rebodied? Wow, times are tough huh.

[Lloyd-TX]

Originally Posted by dr-doug

I don't get the speed channel, so I didn't get to see any of this..but they actually sold cars as rebodied?

Yep - several.

I recorded every hour of the B-J auctions, but I don't recall which day(s) that those admitted re-bodied cars went through. I WAS astounded to hear them referred to as such during the auction, though!

[PonchoV8]

Originally Posted by 1971/455/HO/4-SPD

Jim:

I think they would handle those newly made camaro and mustang bodies like kit cars and give them a state assigned VIN. I agree with you completely that in almost every case, if you remove the VIN plate, Date Tag, etc. It's a re-body and therefore in my eyes illegal. People will try to use the lost title companies out there to get a clean title on a salvage car, etc. I don't agree with it in any case scenario (re-body). The shop that did my 69 1/2 6bbl Roadrunner was restoring a 70 Cuda 440-6bbl Convertible and they literally replaced every piece of sheetmetal on the car other than the firewall, and radiator support because it was so rusty just to stay away from the re-body issue......... It will cost a lot more, but you still have the original car with a lot of donor parts!

I've seen it stated here by some big timers that replacing the body aft of the complete, intact cowl is an accepted version of a restoration. I personally can see the virtue in this since you're not retagging a car. If a person has a crapped out common collector car that has had this done to, is he really any money ahead by taking a 1 to 2 thousand dollar hulk to a level of resto that would allow him to sell it for 15K-20K? It would cost that much to do that wouldn't it?
Obviously, a Cuda convertible, Judge convertible is a different story due to the finished value.

[Jack Ferris]

Originally Posted by PonchoV8

I've seen it stated here by some big timers that replacing the body aft of the complete, intact cowl is an accepted version of a restoration. I personally can see the virtue in this since you're not retagging a car. If a person has a crapped out common collector car that has had this done to, is he really any money ahead by taking a 1 to 2 thousand dollar hulk to a level of resto that would allow him to sell it for 15K-20K? It would cost that much to do that wouldn't it?
Obviously, a Cuda convertible, Judge convertible is a different story due to the finished value.

What you say is true. There are so many of these out there and most don't even know their cars are that way. What kills me is people will buy high dollar muscle all day long with poorly replaced over seas quarters, rockers, a top from a donar car because of a sun roof install in the 80's, weld in chinese floors, trunks, fenders, hood whatever else from a parts car and there ok with all this. But if you mention the word rebody jaws hit the floor. On the flip side one could only imagine the amount of work it would take to do this and get it right. Unless it a 1 of 1 car move on to something else.

[OVERULD]

I don't know - it's just the idea that a cowl and VIN tag have been removed from the original car they were affixed to at the factory and installed on a completely differnt assemblage of sheet metal and then represented as "original", "the real deal" or whatever. It is just basically dishonest and very deceptive. The cowl and VIN tag are almost like the "soul" of the car. Once a car has died and served its useful purpose (meaning it is too far gone beyond restoration), let it rest in peace. You could mount the tags on a plaque and honor the memory of a great car along with some pictures - much like a tombstone. I remember that poor red 71 Judge lying in a junkyard that was for sale on eBay not that long ago and six months later, the VIN/Cowl tag showed up on a remarkably better looking project car in Arizona. We caught that and exposed it, but it was just at its core...wrong.

My two cents...

BJ

[ahub421]

I spoke to an FBI agent about a rare vin tag that was brought back to life, he advised it was not something they would be interested in unless there was fraud involved but he did tell me state laws do deal with this. I only know what Arizona law is, there, a new frame or body/tag removal mandates a dismantle permit then a reconstruct title. Who in their right mind would pay money for a car that might have or had more than one vin number, frame or hidden body vin without it being done within the law. Nuts and wrong

[1971/455/HO/4-SPD]

Originally Posted by OVERULD

I don't know - it's just the idea that a cowl and VIN tag have been removed from the original car they were affixed to at the factory and installed on a completely differnt assemblage of sheet metal and then represented as "original", "the real deal" or whatever. It is just basically dishonest and very deceptive. The cowl and VIN tag are almost like the "soul" of the car. Once a car has died and served its useful purpose (meaning it is too far gone beyond restoration), let it rest in peace. You could mount the tags on a plaque and honor the memory of a great car along with some pictures - much like a tombstone. I remember that poor red 71 Judge lying in a junkyard that was for sale on eBay not that long ago and six months later, the VIN/Cowl tag showed up on a remarkably better looking project car in Arizona. We caught that and exposed it, but it was just at its core...wrong.

My two cents...

BJ

Here, Here, BJ. There is no gray area in this matter. I don't care whether it is a 350 2bbl car or a Judge. The second you remove tags, numbers, etc. and put them onto a donor car, the car no longer exists period. Whether or not state/federal laws mandate prosecution is not a factor. It is wrong, it is deceiving and is usually done to make a bigger profit.

[TEG]

I think its a lot tougher than legal vs. illegal. And I also think there are very subtle differences between swapping a tag vs. swapping a body. I think about this with vintage race cars and how many pieces could be left from an original body (which sell for lots of money).

And what about the old Bugattis, Cadillacs, Stutzs, Duesenbergs, Lincolns, Delahayes, Talbot Lagos, etc. that are openly "rebodied by XXXX sometime in the 1950s, 60s or 70s." Those cars didn't "cease to exist."

I think to a large degree it comes down to intent and disclosure. Its odd, but it almost seems like if you do it piece by piece (floor pans here, trunk floor later, maybe a repop fender, then the rockers later) vs. all at one time, its acceptable.

Interesting question. What if someone found an NOS, all original, perfect in the wrapper body sitting in the corner of a GM warehouse. Perfect in every sense. Wouldn't you be tempted to use it for your restoration vs. buying Chinese cheap metal and building a car around a "potato chip sized piece of metal"?

[Bet Winner]

I agree that removing the vin/data plate is going too far. The vin exists on the frame and probably the firewall so which car do you have after that? It could not be a numbers matching car because those numbers would never match.

I would never feel proud/comfortable to show others my rebodied collector car. I would always feel as if I had something to hide concerning it.

I'll agree that it is better to let a car die that needs a complete rebody.

[PonchoV8]

I agree that you shouldn't remove VINS and cowl tags to put on a different car to commit fraud. There is no gray area there.
But that isn't what he's responding to. He's responding to my recount of some on this site that have stated that it's acceptable (to them) to section the cowl intact with VIN and cowl tag and then replace the body from the doors back. I've seen this documented on the Ultimate site with a convertible 69 GTO and when I digested what was happening, I can't really fault the guy, but it was uncomfortable to see.

I think the law states that you can't remove/replace/sell/dispose of the VINs with INTENT to commit fraud. The above isn't doing that. That law (and lawsuits) are probably why they're disclosing that these B-J cars are rebodies now.

Some of you have seen that I was looking for a convertible body to convert a hardtop into a convertible. I'd still like to make a hardtop (24237) VIN/cowl section mate with the convertible inner panel replacement to make it look like a 24267 car. What should my title say, hardtop or convertible with my 24237 VIN? My frame will have to be a convertible frame which has different VIN numbers--unless I section the channels from the conv frame to install on my hardtop frame.

IMO, it's all gray area if there's no law or consensus on the topic.

[JLHarper]

So many MAY have been rebodied, VIN swapped how do you know what you have?

This hobby is pushing 30 years old, so lots of 'stuff" could have happened and settled down if done in the early days. We just started looking at these issues.

The stories (that have been told) of all those cars in GA getting the "treatment" many years ago is disturbing.

Hundreds of cars. How many others across the US were doing it?

Could be thousands of cars out there, and probably is.

One way to know is to buy a fiber optic scope with light and find the frame rail VIN on models that have it.

They say it started with Corvettes, and when prices went up on the others, you know the crooks went slap happy. It was a untapped market, meaning you could buy plain jane models easy and switch VINS and no one would be the wiser.

[PonchoV8]

Everywhere I've looked on my Judge has OO paint. I've removed a kick panel to look for over spray. I've scratched into the outer body down to the metal where it was scaly and found OO as the only paint--with one cheap repaint. There are Judge sticker pieces on the fenders. The rear deck lid was replaced. My frame dates it to the correct month and yr, but I've never looked deeper for the VIN. I know of 2 or maybe 3 Judges that are not legit cars, but have changed hands to people that knew that.

They're just projects at present.

[74 SD455 Formula]

Should make a survivor car worth that much more in almost any condition,don't you think ? Unfortunately there are people without the knowledge or knowhow that were buying and building the so called knock off's ( rebodies ) that makes us very suspicious and or leary of what we are buying and give this Hobby reason to be concerned.I myself own a 3 owner unrestored survivor car that is #'s matching ( 74 SD Formula ).And my 72 GTO I also own was purchased from a friend and restored by another friend and is correct #'s matching.Personally I probably would not have paid the money that i did for the GTO unless that info was available.Alot of these cars are 30 & 40 years old.Who know's what they been through and the stories they could tell us.At least right or wrong BJ was telling the viewing & listening public that certain cars were rebodies. That should have and did reflect on priceing.Again this is JMO.

[Jerry H.]

Here is my take on it. All these cars are is sheet metal, glass, wiring, etc. I could care less about MY car if it is what I want. I had much rather have a car that has had a vin swapped from a rusty hulk onto a rust free car than to have that same car with all of the rust cut away and panels re welded in. Just MHO.

Now, doing this and misrepresenting it for a profit is a whole different story. I've never owned a rebodied car (that I know of), but as I stated, I'd much rather have one that had been rebodied than patched and covered up.

[PaulatFast]

The VIN swap is not something I would condone. However, frame VINs are meaningless. PERIOD! Anyone can stamp a frame, most original frames around here don't have any VIN at all. I know some laws state the frame ID is the one to use, most enthusiasts don't take into consideration these generic laws cover many vehicles that have THE VIN tag attached to the frame. Our cars have THE VIN tag attached to the body shell.