[lemans411]

all i know is i would rather have to mill a little extra metal off than use my stock block and split it in the lifter valley . i'm sure like anything else they will get better with time

rob 67 lemans

[Ray Cox]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jim Zeek:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Steve Coombes:
Problem = Difficult matter

The fellow that dyno'd his motor last week and on the first pull it blew up due to a issue with the lifters galling into the lifter bores... I'll be less tacky and tell him he has a difficult matter... not a problem </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


The issue was not with the block or the lifters. It was due to the cam profile side loading the lifters. Lifter bores should have been bronze bushed then there would have been no problem. A BBC motor with the same type of cam profile had the same problem on the dyno with 4 lifters. Thats what happens when you build for every ounce of HP or with custom parts. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Jim you cant tell these guys anything your waisting your typing. only 5 people new about that cam and all 5 new it was the cam profile that broke the lifter I talk to them hours after it happened, someone twisted that all around to suit there needs and told steve wrong information if you want to know who give me a call Im done posting that stuff up here becacuse half of it is turning into lies and half truthes any how

[Steve C.]

Gentlemen, I posted that as a parody (right term ?) for the issue of a "problem", and "difficult matter." Nothing else.

Let's see if we can turn this in another direction.

Maybe Skip will post a picture of the two types of Crower lifters I sent to him with a brand new post. Something like.... "solid roller lifters with offset pushrod cups".. or something to bring some positive out of this.
In the picture is what I'm currently using to deal with the pushrod offset. Or someone else can post and ask about offset pushrod cups, or such. No matter.

For example, many individuals who are buying blocks that allow bigger bores might typicaly use "wide port" type heads with offset rockers.
So they might typicaly use lifters with a offset. So lets discuss what type of lifter is commonaly used out there. How have you addressed the oiling issues, and the amount off offset, what trouble was it for you to adapt them to a straight link bar, any piticular brand, etc.

In my case I only need a small amount of offset because my heads are not wide port heads as such. The rocker arm in use has only a 0.170 offset. In comparision a T&D standard Pontiac rocker arm has a 0.080 offset. Previously as noted I used ISKY SBC solid rollers that had a 0.150 offset. Quite some time ago there were pictures of these piticular lifters posted here during a discussion. I posted in regards to 7000-plus RPM use and oiling issues if I remember correctly. It was in my opinion a very good topic. Now fast forward and a change, now we are going to use the current Crower piece with a 0.200 offset.

Now what are the fellows using with the big wide port heads that have 0.200 offset rocker arms, or 0.250 offset rocker arms ? Apparantly there are lots of them out there. Don't know about Comp Cams lifters. From Crower, do they use the 66293 Severe duty rollers for BBC & Big Chief w/offset? I'm curious because they used to be over $900 list.

[Rob]

First I want to point out the 14th feature of the IAII block on this page of the AllPontiac website:

Lifter bores are deeper to allow use of "corporate" lifters.

http://www.allpontiac.com/standard.html


I agree, we definitly need to move the thread from problems with IAII lifters to

My Machinist and I missed that the first time around, what are you guys using cuz I'd like to run shorter pushrods and have .200 offsets if I could.

-Rob

[Rob]

I used Comp 894-L and 894-R back in the day with IAI blocks, may have tie bar issue $480.00.

I hear lots are switching to cranes and crowers.

Part numbers with prices would be appriciated by all still reading this thread.


-Rob

[Brian Baker]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Steve Coombes:
Problem = Difficult matter

The fellow that dyno'd his motor last week and on the first pull it blew up due to a issue with the lifters galling into the lifter bores... I'll be less tacky and tell him he has a difficult matter... not a problem </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's funny...but whatever the issue, it was of no fault of the blocks.

[Skip Fix]

Rob, item 14 might be better worded " lifter bores are deeper REQUIRING corporate lifters or possible machining needed for Pontiac or other roller lifters." Then no questions what will work or may be a potential problem and its remedy. Adding one word would have solved it.

[punisher#1]

well put skip, they also may want to define exactly which corprate lifter they mean.

[Steve C.]

Rob, doesn't the Comp 894 with 0.180 offset have the link bar for GM SB2 heads and not flat.

(and I presume it will have clearance issues with the IA II blk because the link bar location)

[Jeff V]

I have read these posts and I'm glad that people are finally talking about some experiences with their blocks.Last year,I had one built,but I knew going in it was a first production block and may have some issues.I could post alot of info on the build-up on here,but I don't feel that it would be fair to AllPontiac.Bob and Frank know most of the issues concerning their blocks and I feel it is up to them to inform the purchaser.I have begun the build-up with my new IA2,and my engine man says it is a much nicer block than the first one I brought him.So,improvements have been made,but the bottom line is machine work will be necessary,just like building a stock block race engine.(Block truing,decking,line honing,deburring,oil run back,etc.etc....)
Anyone on here can e-mail me if they want some info,or compare notes with my build-up.

I want to stress"This is not a post bashing the block" so don't turn it into one.Thanks.

[Steve C.]

Brian- correct, no falt of the block.

(the info about the gentlemans misfortune on the dyno was mentioned in positive conversation in case I might be using a big cam. I'm not, I thanked him, and passed on my cam specs)

[punisher#1]

steve, while you're giving up cam specs, why don't you give out your social security number and your visa card number too. ha ha ha !

[Rob]

Ok, I think I'm catching up, the "corporate" is likely for flat tappet solid or hydraulic lifters, wonder who's idea that was(ok sry been enough bashing on this thread)

Earlier Bob mentioned a .300 taller lifter from Isky, I guess we need its part number and the correct link bars to use for Pontiac spacing.

Hey Bob how about pricing a a shubeck or www.lsmeng.com keyed lifter bushing IAII option.

-Rob

[Rob]

Did some research, I didn't find the Isky individual part numbers, but .842 diameter lifter choices for tall lifter bore from Isky are

372-LO-180
372-96-RH
372-96-LO-180
302-LO-180
1341-LSH
1341-LO
1341-LO-150
302-96-RH
302-96-RHM

Thats a lot of choices!

RH LSH & RHM have pushrod cups on center

1341-LO are 8 centered & 8 .100 offsets

-150 are 8 centered & 8 .150 offsets

-180 are 8 centered & 8 .180 offsets

Pontiac Guide Bars are GB-900

I'll work on Crane, Comp, Crower, shubeck, lsm, and others over the weekend and early next week, do some consulting with Bob and maybe we can Get the manufactures to package a "Raised lifter boss" Pontiac roller lifter part number.

Personally I ran offsets on all 16 lifters for Superchiefs, might be useful on Tiger heads, exhaust valve pushrods get really close to the front and back of the block.

-Rob

[Steve C.]

Looking at my Isky catalog it appears you can get the tall lifter body needed and because the link bars are removable order a Pontiac GB-900 link bar set. Remove the BBC style link bar, then slip on the straight style Pontiac link bar.

Where as the Crower lifters appear to have a fixed link bar that is not removeable, thus to get the right lift bar it may need to be custom.
(like I got)

The Crower 66295 is listed as Pontiac with offset. Its under the catagory of Cutaway Severe-Duty roller lifters with the note that these types of lifters have "a blade that's been moved up to fit late model blocks". I suspect that's just a generic statement and really doesn't apply to a Pontiac. But if is in fact moved up on this piticular lifter then it could work in the IA II blk, this would need to be varified. The discription also states the offset for these lifters is 0.180

As we have discoverd the Crower Hi-seat liters with the 0.200 offset listed for SBC (p/n 66275) will apparantly not work in the IA II blk without modification to the block itself.

[Mo]

Hey Rob, after looking at the LSM link, couldn't you just machine the lifter bores where you want them? Seems like if you know your gonna run Tiger heads you should have your block machined for them instead of compensating with offset lifters. Looks like LSM has the ability to make a cam to match your new lifter location too. Could it work?

[Rob]

You could machine the blocks lifter bores with a little bit of offset, but the Lifter's roller still needs to be on the cam lobe. So I don't think you'll see anyone changing their location. The reason for doing any of these things is to get overall valve train weight down and the pushrod further away from intake ports so the intake runner is bigger. The overall diameter might be something to look at .873, .903 diameter and maybe some others may still fit on the same 1.818? "Pontiac" center to center distance. I'm going to go look and see what most of the fancy keys are using for bushings and diameters. Might be something that Bob and Frank will consider or something that can be done with BHJ cam tru stuff here at www.ictcengines.com in the future.

The important thing right now is to have a simple roller lifter kit part number that will drop in. That's going to be a .842 diameter with enough height to get the link bars off the block using any base circle cam through a manufaturer lifter kit part number Or temporarly buy a BBC or SBC kit and the Pontiac link bars.

-Rob

[Mo]

Rob, as for the cam lobe, can't that be moved over as well? I'm not sure how much room there would be before getting in the way of the other lobes. Just thinking, if you could machine the block, make a custom cam, and use their new lifters, you would have better overall geometry and a lighter assembly as well. It could be marketed as a TIGER Block option. Wonder if Allpontiac has any raw forgings they would donate to the cause?

[Rob]

Mo,

Yes and No, the Lobes on even the BOP round billet core are spaced for Pontiac lifter bores, so you would have to start off with new cores, then figure if you can get the lifters to not hit cam bearings or the like. It's a dead end when angled vs. straight verticle pushrods make no difference in hp.

Now I've been looking at the .904 diameter lifters, the larger diameter wheel creates more area under the curve. Bigger body provides less scuffing. This could make more hp and be fairly easy with a lifter bore sleeving operation.

-Rob

[Steve C.]

Rob-
I think we might have a misconception of the situation.

AP has on their web site "lifter bores are deeper to allow use of corporate lifters".

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe Dick with the Origional design made the lifter bores deeper at the botom so the lower oil band opening was not exposed with use of a "corporate" lifter. I was told on a "Corporate" lifter the oil band opening is about 1/8 to maybe 1/4 lower than on a Pontiac, I have not varified the distance.

This extended length at the bottom for "corporate" lifter use apparantly does not have anything to do with the additional material now on the top with the IA II block.

This is the area in the picture posted above that we had to machine off to clear my link bars. It is this extra length added to the bores on the top that causes the link bar situation to exist.

Pontiac Dude ordered the same Crower 66299 lifters I did for the .200 offset. He just recieved them and let me know that they do in fact work on the original Indian Adventures block he has on hand without tie bar interferance. However they will not work on the IA II block he has on hand. Something is apparantly different. That area has been raised (or not machined off) so a tie bar height that worked before now won't.

This lifter is the same as a 66275 Small block Chevy Hi-Seat .200 offset solid roller, but with a custom part number for oiling & link bar length, not height. The height of the link bar is about the same location as a SBC and 66260 standard Pontiac Crower solid roller lifter.