[Wade Congdon]

72,

You shouldn't, that's Pdudes point, the fact remains however that you do because very few companies produce quality products. Tom mentioned Ford QC and someone else mentioned something about taking a new car apart. The difference here is a new car has a warranty, hi-performance parts...you're on your own.

[Goatman]

I agree with Wade, Ken, and you, Cpetrice, but........ When I wake up in a perfect world, I will change my tune. Untill then, check it all.

I had a friend who had sent his Dominator to Barry Grant to have a bunch of work done. He got it back and put it on his car. It ran like ass. He took it apart to find DIRT in the bowls and the wrong jets installed.

That is a hands on, small, dedicated, proffesional company and they STILL messed it up. If they can do it, anyone can. Check everything, or regret it later.

[cpetrice]

I hear ya goatman. in my perfect world,my t/a will run 6's,on pump gas,and get 50miles to the gallon. I am waiting for my oil pump to come in,what do I do to it to check it out?

[Tom Vaught]

Charles,
Did you ever get your answer on the difference
between a High Volume and High pressure pump?
If not I will try and summarize:
For quite a few years the standard pump on a stock
Pontiac engine was equivilent to the M54C Pump.
(About 40 psi and XXX rated Gallons per min).
In the mid 60s, the factory increased the gear
size and raised the spring pressure and the 60 psi
oil pump was born. This pump had several major enhancements: A thicker cover (No more tripling up on the bottom covers). Higher pressure relief
spring (no more shimming the spring) and a bigger
inlet tube and more exposed screen area showing. (54C had small inlet hole and small diameter tube)
This pump was so popular with the Hi-perf people that the factory made it the standard pump. It
was truly a high volume pump upgrade over the 54C
due to the multiple changes. This was what Ken C.
was trying to say in his post.
When the 73-74 engines were on the dynos the SD
engines had quite a few failures,(per Tom Nell).
One of the fixes was to increase the pressure in the oil galleries. Pontiac had Melling make a
special spring and cap for this application but
the parts are virtually the same for all of the
other pieces of the pump. This is a High pressure
upgrade to the standard 54D pump and is not necessary on most pontiacs. Any time you order any pump from Melling or anyone else you normally
will receive the 54D pump as most engine/ vehicle applications are 1960s or later.

Subject number TWO!

The latest Ken and Tom Fight.

Have you ever noticed how we get a lot more posts
when Ken and I are arguing. Ken and I hardly ever
agree on anything. He complains quite often about
shoddy workmanship. When I take him to task for what I consider to be normal prep on an oil pump,
he gets upset with me.

I feel that he should not ignore basic engine building steps because the customer is a STREET
guy and not a RACE guy. In my mind this says that
he feels the normal STREET guys motor is not as important as his RACE motor guys. Just because the STREET guys only can afford off the shelf type
parts does not meant that you can't save him some
time and money by showing him how to prep a pump
or doing it for him at a small cost to him. If
you know there is a problem with a pump due to rust or crud and you still sell it to the STREET
guy without telling him about it or helping him
fix it, you are intentionally putting a failure
in his engine. I think a lot of guys would pay a
few bucks gladly to save major bucks on a STREET
engine failure at a later date. You have shoddy
manufacturing practices and also shoddy business practices. Just my opinion. Don't want a war,
don't want the guy on the STREET getting screwed
either. Tom V.

[Tom Vaught]

Charles, If Bruce gets too busy and can't walk you
through the steps, e-mail me and I will provide the info. Tom V.
ps Sorry for screwing up your post.

[Skip Fix]

Man what a topic! Sounds like me and Larry and heads!!

Wade, I'd be interested in a $200 gerator design pump. So count me in.

As was mentioned QC SHOULDN"T have to be done but unfortunately has to be. Part of why I bought a flow bench on my own and found some fairly good Chinese mikes. My own QC. If you measure it yourself you know its correct. Kind of like a paint job, unless you do it yourself you can't trust it was done as good as you wanted.
Over the years I've got a machiune shop who I have double checked and I trust if I'm in a personal time crunch to put a short block together.

[David Holmberg]

Tom, I have been around Pontiacs since 1978, and I have NEVER found anyone that paid more attention to details than Ken Does!

His comment was about the average street motor being built by an average "Joe" at home. He was looking out for the little guy.

Trust me, nothing leaves his shop without being checked.

[ June 09, 2002, 11:04 PM: Message edited by: David Holmberg ]

[Tim Corcoran]

This has been an interesting and informative thread. It seems we have some very intelligent and well educated Pontiac enthusiests posting on this board. I would say that none of us have all the answers but put them all together and we can come up with quite a lot of useful and intersting information. I am an advocate against bickering though as it is not productive. I do sometimes allow my self to argue symantcs as Tom and the dude have. Being in aerospace for over thirty years and working in manufacturing and quality control for most of those years I understand manuafcturing and quality control. I have been an inspector for the FAA for the last ten or so years working in the manufacturing specialty. I don't want to take sides here at all. I just feel the need to cast my opinnion. Over the years I have seen a steady nose dive in quality control in all industries. One of the reasons for this is in the early days a manufacturer actually made all or at least most of his own products. In those days craftsmen took pride and if defects in his work were found he was held responsible. Now days the manufacturer controls the design and has suppliers build the products for him. This system is not a bad system but quality control and supplier control never seem to have adequate trained people or budgets to do a good job. When a company makes budget cuts it seems that the quality department always gets cut. It costs money to visit a supplier especially since so many of them are outside of the US these days. It cost money to inspect products too. Another trend is the moving of hand labor outside the US to reduce labor costs. The cost of quality in theory is believed by some to be non-value added. Now days making a dollar seems to be more of a priority than making a quality defect free product. I agree we shouldn't have to inspect a product that we purchase whether it is a piston, oil pump, cam shaft, a machined crank shaft etc. The company who machined or produced the part should!!! Unfortunately in todays world we have high tech engineering and great designs but quality control is at an all time low. It's sad but now days it's buyer beware like it or not.

Tim Corcoran

[David Holmberg]

That's what makes this board so Great, If I had not read about the oil pumps being "In need of service" out of the box I would have never known. And I would be willing to bet that 85% of the board would have been in the same boat.

There are many products out there that need "Attention" out of the box, with this board and the help of members letting us know about the problems it makes the Pontiac World a better and safer place.

[PONTIAC DUDE]

Tom, LOL.
Your still not understanding what I'm trying to relay to the public about an item shipped with a Quality control problem.
Not what is built in my shop.

I don't have to justify anything to you. You haven't and probably never will anyway, buy anything from me anyway.

Quote; "You have shoddy
manufacturing practices and also shoddy business practices. Just my opinion. Don't want a war,
don't want the guy on the STREET getting screwed
either. Tom V."


And you have bought what from me to base these statements on?

Strong medicine dude.

Hope you can back that up with proof, Legally?

Maybe you need to get out of your Air Conditioned Office and go to a different part of town where real people work hard for their money.
AND their hard earned time doesn't need to be taken up re-inspecting new parts. That's what they paid for when they bought it dude.

I don't feel like refunding money on all the returned Melling pumps because of rusty pickups and pitted pressure relief balls.

You can't clean that up and install it TOM, Can you????????????????
How would you like to open a New box and the pickup looks like it was run in the BAJA.

While we're at it.
I also like the QC at Ford. I read the recalls all the time in my trade magazines and Consumer reports.

I like the design and quality of the 2.9 Ford V-6 head. LOL. Can't even find a good one in a junkyard, Hahahahahahaha.
But at least World Products knows how to make a Quality cast iron replacement head.
and never forget the roll over tire deal.
I know that's not your department, is it?
Same company thou that you work for, QC? Hummmmmm!!!!
As I'm responsible for my employees so are you for Ford, Right?
Before you Accuse people of Shoddy business practices, look in your own house first.

I'm done on this subject.
This all started because I wanted people to be aware of a on going problem with Melling pumps and even Tom admitted that Butler found undersize check balls installed. How many people out there would know to look for that? Goatman? Anyone?

I can see my customer working at the local Rock Mines down here coming in and saying " Hey this has an undersize ball installed and I want you to fix it so I can go the Hell home and fix my Pontiac wagon, so I can go to work on Monday."

Yeeeeeeesh, Yea, I don't care about the public, that's why I brought this item up.
I didn't see anyone else bring the pump or ball fit problem to light to inform the public.
I notice that others are posting about similiar occurances now, Hummmmmm.

Thanks, Tom for finally informing us of this "How long ago" undersize check ball problem....Hummmmm
Oh no..... A Ford flashback.

Have a nice Day, Tom

[ June 07, 2002, 08:55 PM: Message edited by: PONTIAC DUDE ]

[David Holmberg]

Mr Vaught, Remember when you bought those headers from Warrior? You Posted this...

"My Comment:
Confirms what I said above about the crummy box
and rust all over collectors and headers. A quick
question. Do you think a rusted and pitted gun
would be sold in a gun store as brand new because
it wasn't ever fired. Not likely. "

I quess New Oil pumps don't apply? Humm.

http://performanceyears.com/ubb/ulti...;f=23;t=000175

Double Standard.

[ June 07, 2002, 08:58 PM: Message edited by: David Holmberg ]

[PONTIAC DUDE]

Does one have to dis-assemble every lifter installed in every engine to make sure it is assembled correctly and clean?

It can get to an Anal Retentive stage, don't ya think?

Later, post away, I'm done, and hope people are aware of a possible Oil pump problem in the market currently.

[Tom Vaught]

Ken,

"Tom, LOL.
Your still not understanding what I'm trying to relay to the public about an item shipped with a Quality control problem.
Not what is built in my shop.

I said: OK.

I don't have to justify anything to you. You haven't and probably never will anyway, buy anything from me anyway.

I said: You don't know that for sure.

Quote; "You have shoddy
manufacturing practices and also shoddy business practices. Just my opinion. Don't want a war,
don't want the guy on the STREET getting screwed
either. Tom V."

I Said: Poorly written on my part, Should have said "The world has shoddy manufacturing practices
and the world also has shoddy business practices
The world can have them in both types of auto businesses. The intent is for the street guy to
be aware of the risks with installing off the shelf parts. The word "You" was used like "you" can have it one way or "you" can have it a different way. A generic word. NOT pointing ANY
finger at "KEN" personally.

And you have bought what from me to base these statements on?
Strong medicine dude.
Hope you can back that up with proof, Legally?

I said: I don't think I need to back up anything as I said above it was a commonly used word that could be taken two ways.

Maybe you need to get out of your Air Conditioned Office and go to a different part of town where real people work hard for their money.
AND their hard earned time doesn't need to be taken up re-inspecting new parts. That's what they paid for when they bought it dude.

I said: Sorry you (KEN) feel that I am a stuffed
shirt but all I can say is My father died when I was 2, my mother never remarried, She suffered
from depression, I worked my way through college
without any outside help (7 years) as a welder,
speed shop machinist, engine builder, dish washer,
custodian, security guard, etc. Most times working
at least two jobs. Eventually, I got where I am
today, I know the value of money as well as anyone

I don't feel like refunding money on all the returned Melling pumps because of rusty pickups and pitted pressure relief balls.
You can't clean that up and install it TOM, Can you????????????????
How would you like to open a New box and the pickup looks like it was run in the BAJA.

I said: So if you don't refund the money on the rusty pickups or pitted balls, doesn't the customer who bought the pump from you get screwed? If K-Mart sells a bad toaster, the guy
who bought it gets his money back. But you don't
want to give the money back on a bad part when you
know it is bad?

While we're at it.
I also like the QC at Ford. I read the recalls all the time in my trade magizines and Consumer reports.
Especially the roll over tire deal.
I know that's not your department, is it?
Same company thou that you work for, QC? Hummmmmm!!!!

I said: Eventually, I knew that you Ken would bring this up, as you Ken always do. Ford Motor Company replaced every tire even though we were not asked to. They were Firestone tires, Ford did not make them anymore than you KEN made those Melling pumps. The difference is you Ken said
that you Ken did not fix your problem, Ken passed
it on to his customers. "I DON'T FEEL LIKE refunding money on all the returned Melling pumps because of rusty pickups and pitted pressure relief balls".

Before you Accuse people of Shoddy business practices, look in your own house first.

I said: read your Ken's words above

I'm done on this subject.

This all started because I wanted people to be aware of a on going problem with Melling pumps and even Tom admitted that Butler found undersize check balls installed. How many people out there would know to look for that? Goatman? Anyone?

I said: I did, but was criticised for taking the time to look for the problem by taking the pump apart.

I can see my customer working at the local Rock Mines down here coming in and saying " Hey this has an undersize ball installed and I want you to fix it so I can go the Hell home and fix my Pontiac wagon, so I can go to work on Monday."

I said: No Comment, Venting probably.

Yeeeeeeesh, Yea, I don't care about the public, that's why I brought this item up.
I didn't see anyone else bring the pump or ball fit problem to light to inform the public.
I notice that others are posting about similiar occurances now, Hummmmmm.
Thanks, Tom for finally informing us of this "How long ago" undersize check ball problem....Hummmmm
Oh no..... A Ford flashback.

I said, I think your Ken's intentions were well
placed until you got frustrated (read your post)
with the Melling quality issue and then lashed
out at Ken Crocie and me. Initially, I was agreeing with you completely until you KEN said
I was supporting Melling position. I never did that once. I said I checked everything, just like Goatman said he did.

Have a nice Day, Tom

I said: No good deed by either party goes unpunished! You too Ken!

[Tom Vaught]

David,

David posted a previous comment by me:

"My Comment:
Confirms what I said above about the crummy box
and rust all over collectors and headers. A quick
question. Do you think a rusted and pitted gun
would be sold in a gun store as brand new because
it wasn't ever fired. Not likely. "

David's comment:

I quess New Oil pumps don't apply? Humm.

Read the whole story about the headers David.
Warrior sold the headers as NEW.

They were rusty. I complained on the board. I got
NO MONEY BACK! I got screwed.

The customer buys an oil pump, no money is refunded. They get screwed. Just like me. Who
kept the money, Warriar on the headers and Ken
on the oil pumps. No double standard. I got screwed, they got screwed, If Ken had given back the money, he could have joined the club and said he got screwed too BUT he kept the money.
Have a nice day David! Tom V.

Per Ken, the customers did not get any money back from the transaction.

[PONTIAC DUDE]

No Tom, I never said I didn't or never would give the customer his money back, because the product was bad.

I said I don't like returning money because of someone else's lack of "as you call it" QC.

I'm in business to make money, not give it away.
I'm not The Donald. LOL.

If I had to give back money on every product because of QC, then 2 people/companies will suffer. Me more then them. I'm smaller and have less of a margin to survive.
I can't afford to sell and return money on products. That's not how business works.

I could give you one of many examples of a Melling pump/s that they refused to cover. A bad design flaw that "Quote" they said isn't worth re-designing a Ford HV pump as the applications it applies to and complaints taken to court aren't worth the expense of re-tooling."UnQuote" I made good to the tune of $500 out of my pocket as this Garage does do a good business with me. And more to this story.
But why should I have to stand behind their design flaws or QC. I've experienced and seen enough. I'm no longer selling Melling products, so I won't have to worry about these problems.

However, if there are any Melling products out there that need attention or your not comfortable with and sold by me. I'll offer a refund or replace it(and check it) with a Dyna Gear pump.

I Called DynaGear and they do make their own pumps.
Will be tearing into them to check the QC. Then If they check good, I'll be comfortable using and selling them. Plus I don't have to tell the customer he has to take it apart and clean and check it.
As they say. Competition is supposed to breed better service and quality. We will see.

I have never not made good on anything I ever sold in 30+ years of business, "If it was Legit"!!!

OK, OK, Now I'm done. Yea right.
No really I am.............LOL.

[Tom Vaught]

I believe you when you say you have made good on your dealing with your customers. I, mistakenly, thought you said earlier that you had not in all
cases returned money owed to the customer when
it was appropriate. Thanks for the clarification. That was my ONLY issue with the whole affair. I
personally had nothing to do with the Firestone deal. I would like to make that clear too and move on on that subject as well. I am done Too!
Tom Vaught

[David Holmberg]

[Robert Williams]

Tom V, and Pontiac Dude, i hope this is the end of it. You are BOTH good people. You are both EXPERTS and know what you are talking about, so let's quit and CAN'T WE ALL GET ALONG.

[J.C.you]

Good stuff, guys, QC huh, sounds like egos to me. Toes are sore after this one. Kiss and make up, or duke it out in 1/4 mile increments. Tom V, got a hot Ford stashed back? We know what the Dude has. Mayby thrilla in Norrillawalk?

[Half-Inch Stud]

...will likely open every oil pump in the future, as I've done in the past.

Did the HYD lifter rebuild/modifucations...THAT IS anal retentive, and will not be doing that anymore.

Anybody that build transmissions KNOWS that you check every wear surface in an engine build. I trust that P-Dude checks everything for wear patterns and cleanliness, on every motor (Street and race) for first turn success, for every customer.

H.I. Stud