[ctgross]

There are a lot more folks here more well versed than this old shade-tree, but it sounds like it's a very good thing the engine didn't fire!!! Most likely would have bent some push rods and maybe even worse. Does'nt sound right at all to me, believe I'd have Comp. on the phone right now

[SpecialK40]

David:
Glad you've come around to the valves-sticking-open premise, as I wrote earlier this is your most likely culprit.

When faced with a similiar symptom I replaced ALL my lifters with new Comp hydraulics, taking this variable out of the equation. Engine fired, but took some more time to get the valves adjusted perfectly.

Good Luck!

[PONTIAC DUDE]

David. I had this happen in my big motor when I made 501 rwhp. So I know what the deal is. I made the cam/lifter/spring change in the car. I didn't want to have to take the siliconed valley pan off again so I set them at .002 and ran it. After a while the lifter free'd up and reset the valves, but I don't know if I would recommend doing this unless a person has quite a bit of engine experience and knows what to look for and watch.
Installed and have fired up 9 hyd roller Pontiac combos so far since I have be messing with them and had an issues with 2. But they worked themselves out.

But that was way back toward the beginning of last year. Currently haven't seen any issues with Comp Hyd roller lifters. But aware of the issue.
Rather then let you fight this situation.
If you want, Send them back and I will ship out another set.
Free shipping to ya dude.

I'll argue with Comp. LOL.

[Droptop64]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by David Jones:
From what I'm seeing, these look to be defective.6 of these have some plunger movement. 10 of them are solid as a rock. That doesn't sound right to me. This is after much soaking and air cleaning. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Keep in mind that the lifters that were on an open valve at the time or removal are going to be depleted relative to the other ones. Especially since they've only been mildly exposed to minor oil pump pressure during starting attempts. Then they sit for a while before you take them out... You will get some difference in difficulty of pushing the plunger down because of this. I always have, and to date have not had any lifter problems because of this.

[David Jones]

Ken, they are leaving today. Please check and clean this new set for me. If I need to pay for that, I'll be more than happy to.
Thanks,
David

[goatseeker]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Rather then let you fight this situation.
If you want, Send them back and I will ship out another set.
Free shipping to ya dude. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now that's what I call good customer service!
Hang in there David - the Dude will get you hooked up!

[tremo]

David,

Any updates?

Jim.

[David Jones]

Still waiting on the replacement lifters.......
I'll update when I get them.

[David Jones]

The lifters have come home and are soaking in oil. Soon, we'll try this again.

[David Jones]

Well, I'm obviously missing something. Still won't hit a lick. Nothing. When I generate some more patience I'm going to run a compression test. I'm fairly sure I have fuel, I noticed a little fuel spray coming out of the carb after grinding on it for a while. After I had finished up installing the lifters/pushrods/rockers and setting the valves (zero lash and 16th of a turn, per P Dude)I rotated the crankshaft thru a cycle and brought the timing mark around to zero, which came right after the intake valve closed on #1. The rotor was pointed where I had #1 wire installed, so I felt good about that. Left it right there and put the valley pan , intake carb and other pieces on installed the plugs and put the wires on the cap following the firing order counterclockwise. Narry a burp from the engine as it turned over. Stared at it for a while (thinking but cussing at the same time ) and not coming up with any answers I climbed back in and turned it over for a few more revolutions. Pushed it back into the basement and went upstairs and had a bath and supper. Enough for one day. Compression test will be 1st. If that looks good, spark check. How do I verify that I am getting not just a spark, but a strong enough spark. What would make it not fire at all? I know we've been through this before but, I'm missing something. Not firing at all......

[buwalda]

David,
I had a problem a few months back, where I could get a spark by holding the plug lead near a ground. However, the engine would not fire. Ofcourse, I thought the coil was ok because I saw that I had a spark, so I looked elsewhere. Changed the pick up coil, ran a wire to the module direct from the battery [+] etc, etc Still would not fire. In desperation, I changed the coil & it fired immediately! The coil must have been breaking down internally when it was under load. It was an expensive Jacobs coil. Even though it was out of warranty, it was replaced free of charge, which makes me think that they had problems with them & knew about it.

[Holeshot71]

Quote:
I rotated the crankshaft thru a cycle and brought the timing mark around to zero, which came right after the intake valve closed on #1.


David, How close was the timing mark to zero when the Intake valve closed?

[David Jones]

Geoff, right now I'm wondering about anything thats under the hood! I've got to step back and take a fresh look at the whole thing. Thats why I called it quits last night, when I did. I have a spare coil that I will try after I do a compression check. I'm also questioning the distributor. I had to swap distributor gears (used a polymer gear) because of the hydraulic roller cam I've installed and it took a considerable amount of pounding to start and then drive in the new roll pin that holds it on. I had the distributor laying on some folded up towels but that had to be a lot of vibration for it to absorb. Its a Dave Ray smallbody HEI conversion with the module mounted up under the distributor body. Before this last lifter install I had verified spark, both with my timing light and by laying a plug against a ground and watching. Enough spark? Dunno.
I did see fuel spraying slightly up out of the carb after grinding on the starter for a while. Seems like to me if it was a fuel issue, it would hit at least some since there is fuel present. It did see an accelerator pump squirt, after I had taken the carb off to pull the other set of lifters out, so I think its working.
Timing chain install. P Dude had asked earlier if I was sure the timing chain was installed on the right marks. I'm fairly sure. I installed it dot to dot (6 on top gear to 12 on crank gear) using the right marks. Wouldn't installing it wrong show up as valve opening and closing events happening at times that had no relation to the timing mark on the balancer? After I set the valves last night I ran the engine through a cycle by hand and watched the valves on #1 open and close in relation to the timing mark on the balancer. The intake valve was fully closed (Question? Where on the intake cam lobe should the lifter be, to be considered fully closed at TDC?) both rockers were "loose" at what looks like about 3 crankshaft degrees past the TDC mark. (answer for Holeshot71)
1. Fuel seems to be present
2. Compression. Will run that again maybe tonight after Church.
3. Spark? I had it. Strong enough? Got to investigate this, maybe swap some parts out.
4. Valve timing? Maybe somebody can tell me from my sentence above if I'm thinking right on this.
Thanks guys
David

[Lemans1]

That statement does not sound right. The intake valve should close well before you get close to 0 on the balancer. Like Holeshot said, how close to 0 before it closed?

[Jeff Walker]

Gotta agree with Holeshot71 and Lemans1 about the valve closing issue. It will depend on the grind of the cam, but I am thinking you should be able to turn the engine a little more than 1/4 turn after the intake valve closes until you reach TDC.

Do you have a single or mulitiple keyway timing set. If it is a multiple keyway set, I have heard of people getting the marks mixed up and installing it wrong. HTH

[David Jones]

Its a Rollmaster, with multiple keyways. At what point on the intake lobe is the valve considered closed and does TDC occur? If I've installed it wrong, I'd like to find some way to verify thats the case without taking it apart first. Is there a way? This is a Comp Hyd roller with the steep ramps.

[goatseeker]

David,
I know you've gotten a million suggestions but here's another.
I have the exact same "Dave's" HEI distributor as you do. My HEI module went bad once and it acted the same way you describe. I had spark but it wouldn't fire. Changed the module (they carry them at NAPA) and it worked.
No making any guarantee - but the module costs about $20 and takes 10 minutes to change and COULD produce the symptoms you're having. It might be worth a shot. Good luck, wish I lived closer so I could give you a hand.

[Jeff Walker]

Look at your valve timing specs on your cam card where it gives your valve timing events. you will see where it tell when the intake valve closes. For example it might say that it closes at 63 degrees after bottom dead center. Subtract that amount from 180 degrees. That is the amount you should be able to turn the crankshaft until you get to top dead center.

But all of what I described is a bit hard to do exactly, unless you have a degree wheel set up. I have looked up a few cam specs though and found that on most you will be able to turn the crank at least a 1/4 (90 degrees) turn after the intake valve closes to reach TDC.

So to sum it up, turn you engine over until the intake valve closes, mark the balancer and continue turning it until you are at TDC. If it isn't at least a 1/4 turn until you reach TDC you most likely know what your problem is.

[David Jones]

Tim, I'm definately going to go module/coil route early on. I'm not sure early on applies anymore . Tim, the module is under the distributor body, I guess that means replacing it requires pulling the distributor?
Jeff, I do have a degree wheel and will also follow your suggestion. My balancer is marked in 90 degree increments, so maybe I can "eyeball" it before hand to see if it requires a more exact measurement. I think from what I saw last night, I did it correctly, I'm just not very good at describing what I did and what I saw. But then I did it so, well........

[goatseeker]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">the module is under the distributor body, I guess that means replacing it requires pulling the distributor? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
You could change the module without pulling the distributor - if you have fingers like an octopus . It's easier to just pull it, plus that way you can look at your polymer oil pump drive gear to see if it's chewed up. Remember to mark the position of the rotor relative to the cap & dist body before you pull the dist.
Hang in there -
I....think....you're....getting......close!