[goquick]

Originally Posted by 72LuxuryLeMansLa.

fbrown,

I am new to this Pontiac world and have been looking into the cost of building my 72 350 into 20mpg street toy that can push you back into the seat. The costs are prohibitive!!!
I am going to save my money for a GMPP crate motor and store my original motor. I am enjoying your project from La.
I hope you are on the road by spring.

Karl

Where and who have you been getting the prices from? Bet it's cheaper than that pos chevy crate engine unless someone is trying to rob you. I can build it for you andsave you some $

[b-man]

Originally Posted by goquick

Where and who have you been getting the prices from? Bet it's cheaper than that pos chevy crate engine unless someone is trying to rob you.

So, when are you going to prove to the forum members that you can build a cheaper and more powerful Pontiac engine that is just as fuel efficient and lightweight as one of these LS3 engines?

You came into my build thread claiming you could, and when I kindly asked you to provide the parts list and specs for such an engine you went away for over a month and never responded. After that I removed your posts in my thread, you were just going into my thread over and over to trash it and couldn't provide any backup to your claims.

Build a complete all-aluminum Pontiac V8 with a hydraulic roller cam and port EFI for less than $6200.

Tell us all how you can do it.

We're waiting.

[goquick]

B man, I had also moved during that time 700+ miles and did not have a computer. Now you want to trash me for my opinion of your ruining a Pontiac? Let's see, you've spent HOW MUCH to put that over rated pos in your car? A hell of alot more than 6200 !!! Get honest you now have at least 30k in your project. You will have a nice chevelle when it's done. But why did you remove all my post? Because you really didn't want to see the numbers.

[b-man]

Originally Posted by goquick

B man, I had also moved during that time 700+ miles and did not have a computer. Now you want to trash me for my opinion of your ruining a Pontiac? Let's see, you've spent HOW MUCH to put that over rated pos in your car? A hell of alot more than 6200 !!! Get honest you now have at least 30k in your project. You will have a nice chevelle when it's done. But why did you remove all my post? Because you really didn't want to see the numbers.

I have 31K in my project, and about 19K of that is for the engine and trans, fuel system, computer controls, etc. A bunch of money went into brakes, suspension and wheels and tires that all have zero to do with the LS3 engine install.

Most of the component costs are listed in my thread, I didn't cut any corners and bought all new parts.

Out of that 19K was a $6200 engine, a $450 oil pan, $620 headers and $1700 computer and wiring harness that controls both the engine and trans. A harness to run the engine alone would have cost about half that $1700. All of the fuel system parts and cooling system pieces would be needed no matter what EFI engine was going in the car.

I decided to install a 4L70E transmission that enables my car to have a lockup converter and cruise control, the trans was $2300 and the Yank lockup converter was $725. I also spent an extra $500 for a custom tailshaft that enabled me to keep a cable-driven speedo. None of this has anything to do with the LS3 engine either, I could have used a $500 TH400 and a $500 Continental converter that I already had.

Nobody's trashing your opinion, but you love to come into this forum making snide remarks. Your trashing posts were removed because you're just trying your best to turn these threads into a Chevy bash-fest.

Again, list up all the parts and the cost for your all-aluminum EFI hydraulic roller-cammed Pontiac engine.

Mine cost less than 8K, ready to bolt into the car.

Let's see your numbers. I did want to see your list of parts and prices, but you never responded to my very fair challenge. You came back into my thread several times since then, but never offered up any information just several remarks about my car being a nice Chevelle. How am I or anyone else here supposed to take you seriously?

List your parts and costs, include the labor to assemble it all complete and load it into a crate ready to ship.

[1978 T/A]

The LS series motors are far from a "pos". LSx motors make tons of power and are still able to retain reliablity as well as good MPG.

[72LuxuryLeMansLa.]

Originally Posted by goquick

Where and who have you been getting the prices from? Bet it's cheaper than that pos chevy crate engine unless someone is trying to rob you. I can build it for you andsave you some $

As I said; I am new to Pontiacs. If you would be so kind as to help me formulate a plan for an engine, I would be very grateful.
I have a stock (except for performer manifold and '74 Q-Jet) 1972 350cubic inch with 7h1 heads and dual exhaust. The transmission is a th350 that I will replace with a 200-4r and the rear gears are 2.78:1 . I will not use this car on a drag strip! Peak HP is of no major concern. Making great power from idle through 4000 rpm is more my concern.

Since this is the original block, I do not want to bore it any more than necessary to clean the block up. I would appreciate a list of parts that you would use to get this motor to around 400hp/400ft. lbs. of torque. Also retail sources for these parts would be great.

Thanks, Karl

[b-man]

When you can build up a 400-pound Pontiac engine for less $ than the LS3 sells for then please by all means let us all know.

Having a very lightweight engine over the front wheels is important to some of us who like to turn corners fast as well as accelerate quickly.

[goquick]

I'll concede that all you really wanted was a lightweight engine. And that is all you got. As for the LS3 making that kind of power, prove it in the vehicles performance. I have a friend that has put the ls4 stuff on his z28, and frankly, it's better than the ls3 he had, but it still isn't impressive to me. so it's a 17 mpg 12.50 car and thats it.

[FLYNLOW]

Originally Posted by goquick

I'll concede that all you really wanted was a lightweight engine. And that is all you got. As for the LS3 making that kind of power, prove it in the vehicles performance. I have a friend that has put the ls4 stuff on his z28, and frankly, it's better than the ls3 he had, but it still isn't impressive to me. so it's a 17 mpg 12.50 car and thats it.

What? He put LS4 heads on a motor that used to have LS3 heads (so...it'd be a 4" bore motor or bigger) and its better? WHAT?! Do you even know what your talking about (judging from most of your posts, I think the answer is evident)? That's like taking RA4 heads off a Pontiac and installing some old 670's on it.

My motor isn't even in the same league as an LS3 and I'd put it up against anyone's Pontiac motor, give it to an independant testing agency and let them hash out the overall drivability of the car and the performance presented, and for giggles, we'll throw in cost. I mean c'mon, what is your problem? And who in the world drives a 99 Z28/T/A or Vette and has never driven it past 5500RPM? The automatic doesn't even shift yet, so your sayng it was never ever floored?

Anyway, theres something wrong with your buddies car, which is no big surprise if he can't even figure his heads out.

::shrug:: 13.0's, 112 traps, 3.08's with a stick, full creature comforts, and 25MPG. Yea, I can't drive.

[b-man]

Originally Posted by goquick

I'll concede that all you really wanted was a lightweight engine. And that is all you got. As for the LS3 making that kind of power, prove it in the vehicles performance. I have a friend that has put the ls4 stuff on his z28, and frankly, it's better than the ls3 he had, but it still isn't impressive to me. so it's a 17 mpg 12.50 car and thats it.

So you can't build a Pontiac engine that is both as lightweight and powerful as the LS3 for the same money.

I knew that.

So did you.

[goquick]

Originally Posted by b-man

So you can't build a Pontiac engine that is both as lightweight and powerful as the LS3 for the same money.

I knew that.

So did you.

BMan, I can make MORE power than the ls3 pos for less money.

[b-man]

Originally Posted by 72LuxuryLeMansLa.

As I said; I am new to Pontiacs. If you would be so kind as to help me formulate a plan for an engine, I would be very grateful.
I have a stock (except for performer manifold and '74 Q-Jet) 1972 350cubic inch with 7h1 heads and dual exhaust. The transmission is a th350 that I will replace with a 200-4r and the rear gears are 2.78:1 . I will not use this car on a drag strip! Peak HP is of no major concern. Making great power from idle through 4000 rpm is more my concern.

Since this is the original block, I do not want to bore it any more than necessary to clean the block up. I would appreciate a list of parts that you would use to get this motor to around 400hp/400ft. lbs. of torque. Also retail sources for these parts would be great.

Thanks, Karl

If you'd like advice on this then please take it to PMs, respect the thread starter and please don't hijack this thread. We have already wavered off-topic enough.

Originally Posted by goquick

BMan, I can make MORE power than the ls3 pos for less money.

Until you can build a Pontiac V8 engine that makes the same power and is as lightweight as the LS3 for the same cost none of that matters in the least.

Your opinion of the LS3 swap going on here was never asked for by the thread starter. This thread as well as mine was started to share the progress of a buildup that some PY members might be interested in.

As a matter of fact this particular subforum was created by the PY administrators in order to help others with their non-Pontiac engine swaps as well as Pontiac engines in non-Pontiacs, so now I'm asking you to respect the wishes of the PY admins.

You've more than had your 2 cents, so now I'm asking you to leave this thread and others like it inside this subforum alone.

[goquick]

Bman, if you look, my post was in response to someone else's question/statement about what he' is looking to do to his Pontiac and really seemed like he might be getting screwed on pricing if he did a true Pontiac engine. Then your egging it on to now turn around and act like it is all my doing that we are still posting concerning my opinion of people messing up their Pontiacs and turning them into general messes. This will be my last post in this thread, even if asked by others to respond, is that respectful enough for you? And as for as powerful as the LS3? Easy to beat with even the 350 Pontiac for less $$$.

[6 Grrrs]

Mr goquick:

I am a Pontiac purist myself & do not usually condone the installation of non Pontiac motors in Pontiacs. I just want you to know that before I go on.

You can bash the LSx all you want for it being a POS, but there are a whole lot more LSx engines out there than the one 'POS' in your driveway. I personally know many people locally here in the Pittsburgh area with some pretty stout LSx motors in fbuckets & trucks, as well as installed in classic Chevelles, Camaros, & Novas. I even installed one in a 1990 Chevy 454SS truck like the one in my sig (different truck though). Future plans for my truck may include a LSx series motor with twin turbos on it.

The one I did was a completely stock 325hp '99 Camaro LS1 with a 4L60e (both had 28k miles on them). It had headers & 3" exhaust & 3.73 gears. My truck when stock ran a 16.1 in the 1/4 with a severely smogged 454/TH400/3.73's and it got 8 mpg whether it was on the highway or around town. It was a pig to say the least. This other truck that I did the swap into was lowered (bagged) and had 20" front & 22" rear wheels (hurt 1/4 mile performance). It ran 14.1 in the 1/4 (only one pass ever at a track in 98 degree weather) & consistently got 18-20mpg. Two seconds faster & more than double the mileage with nothing more than Headers & exhaust. The truck literally had the snot beat out of it every time it was driven. He did donuts & burnouts literally every time he drove it. We had it on a road course, hammered it, drifted it, & ran it to redline just about the whole time and 40-50 laps. It was street raced at just about every stoplight. This motor was abused every chance it could be. I'll bet the oil was changed twice, maybe three times in the 80k miles that was put on it. It never broke, it never even hiccupped. He sold the truck & as far as I know the guy is still driving it with no problems.

Many people have similar stories about the LSx motors. Hell a guy here has a pickup with a 4.8 that makes 702 whp (turboed). Another guy has a daily driven Camaro with 550 whp and drives it daily, whether in the winter or summer. Another guy has a '72 Chevelle with a 408ci LSx that makes 480whp and runs high 10s in the 1/4. I owned a 2004 GTO with an LS1/T56 & I loved the motor. It reminded me of a Pontiac motor with the low end grunt.

If these guys want to build LSx powered Pontiacs -- who cares. It's not like they are ruining an original '64 GTO or even a factory Judge, they started life as lowly Tempests that are getting a new lease on life (no offense to Bart & Fbrown about your cars). I personally think they are both great builds. My GTO is stock & I find a lot to be desired when driving it (funny how the older guys think the '60's was when real musclecars were built, yet most 'real' musclecars won't hold a candlestick to the performance of Modern Performance Cars). These cars are not Chevelles, they are Pontiacs with GM motors. Would you rather they put Ford motors in them???

I would never put an LSx in my 63K mile real Tripower GTO, but I know it would be a whole lot more fun to drive. I would start with a Tempest or LeMans and go the route these guys are going.

I find it tough to believe a 82k mile car that was never abused has a rod hanging out the side of the block, regardless what kind of motor it is. My guess is she ran it out of oil or something. Engine failures do happen & I'm not trying to say the LSx is the greatest engine out there. It is one of the most capable, though.

I too would like to see the buildup of a reliable, powerful, lightweight Pontiac motor for less than $6200. I'll build one for my GTO in a heartbeat. Right now I'm looking to build a stout 447ci stroker (based on my '66 389 block) for about the same money (best of everything though isn't cheap). I know I could build it cheaper, but may sacrifice reliability.

Please quit pissing on these threads. Go join a Chevy or Ford forum a bash their stuff.

[blue goats]

Bart and Fbrown,
This might sound like a stupid question but I'm going to ask it anyway. Can you put the 04-06 plastic GTO covers on the LS-3 with out any mods to them?

[fbrown]

I don't know if the GTO Fuel Rail Cover will fit. It's something I should have tried before I sold my 06 GTO about a month ago.

[fbrown]

This might sound like a stupid question but I'm going to ask it anyway. Can you put the 04-06 plastic GTO covers on the LS-3 with out any mods to them?

From photos it looks like the fuel line enters in the back for the GTO covers and the side for the Corvette covers. So it looks like you would need to modify the fuel rail fuel intake line to use the GTO covers,

Project updates:

Installing outer-wheel well portions for the rusted out junk. This is taking a lot of time, however I am nearing completeion. I plan to epoxy prime the inner structure and spray it with lizard skin before installing the quarters.

Passenger side complete with thin layer of metal to metal over the weld. I also coated the under side of the weld with metal to metal.



Driver side as welded.



Driver side with weld smoothed.



Patch panels came in for the fenders.

[blue goats]

Won't the lizzard skin catch on fire when your welding ww to q-panel. I think I would use weld primer or cold galvanizing paint instead JMHO.

[fbrown]

Updates: Progress stopped since Thanksgiving It's bad being at home and being too ill to work on the car. Had my gall bladder removed and just now recovering enough to do little things.

Picking up where I left off in November, I was fabricating new metal to replace some swiss cheese.




And the Installtaion of the replacement.



I also purchased 2005 GTO bucket seats for my project. I think the stock 68 seats aren't going to hold me in place. I still remember back in the 70's taking a curve really fast in my 69 Bonneville and sliding half way across the front seat!



I'm ready to apply epoxy primer to wheel wells and inner structure, but poor weather is keeping me from priming the car, although the car is in my basement with the temperatures in the teens, I can't ventilate my basement and keep it warm enough for painting. Today's expected high 25. However there are plenty of other things that need doing.

[blue goats]

We must be on the same wavelength .I've been thinking of buying a set of 2004-2006 GTO seats for my 69. I have the original seats but even with new foam and covers they still weren't very comfy for extended rides like new cars. Last summer I got fed up with them and went to a local yard and picked out a set from a prelude (it was the only blue set that was comfy and undamaged). I love them except entry and exit is a little harder with seats with side bolsters. Can't wait to see them installed in your car. The weather here has been uncooperative too. Hope you get well soon.
George