[70Steve]

Hi Dennis,

That silver car that John Sawruk spoke to you about, was that a plain Tempest or a GT37? Was it the one he wrote about in the 80's?

In regards to the Magnum cars, I noticed in one of the old pics in the showroom is a white one, complete with a puny single exhaust! They mustn't have got around to changing it before the promo! (Anyone have the pic handy?)

I can't believe the amount of options that could or couldn't be ordered for no apparent reason (eg. no buckets in sedans, RAIV Formula, 455 Judge etc to name a few). If the brochures and the salesman didn't mention it or know, how the heck was Joe Average meant to know!? Imagine the original owner of your car looking at the brochure and speccing it up in his head...V8, 4 spd, looks like it has to be a 350, so off he goes and orders that exact spec. I love this sort of stuff for some reason.

Even if no 400 4 spd 4 doors were built, I think your car will clearly prove how wrong it was not to build them.

If you find out some more about the car Diego mentioned, would you mind sharing please?

[Diego]

70Steve, was the RAIV not available on the Formula 400? Or it just wasn't built?

Back to the topic at hand: I don't see a reason why a 400 4-speed 4-door would not be available.

[70Steve]

Originally Posted by Diego

70Steve, was the RAIV not available on the Formula 400? Or it just wasn't built?

Back to the topic at hand: I don't see a reason why a 400 4-speed 4-door would not be available.

I always thought that apparently it was available, just nobody ordered one? I don't think I've seen any printed matter saying it was available though? I was just trying to make the point that if you went to a Dealer and looked at what options were available in the brochure and the salesman wasn't upto speed on the latest updates etc. that you stood a very good chance of only getting the printed options. Re the 455 Judge, early brochure states 455 not available with The Judge, but history shows that at some point it was actually available. What prompted that change later in the model year?

Why could you only order black or sandlewood colored interiors with a bench seat in 70 GTO's yet other colour bench seats were available in the LeMans Sport? Why weren't buckets available in 4 doors? Would it have been that hard for the factory? This sort of trivia interests me.

In regards to a 400 4dr 4 spd, and if any 4 door looked like a candidate to be ordered as a factory 400, it is Dan and Dennis' car, what with the gauges and steering wheel. On the order form (for a LeMans Sport atleast) it states under Transmissions that the M20 is not available for 1bbl 6 cyl, 2bbl 400 and 4bbl 400, leaving the only available engine the 2bbl 350. This is another example of weird option availability on the paperwork...why did they O.K. a 3spd 400, but not a 4 spd? Yet it was O.K. to get a 350 with 4 spd!
Maybe I've missed something somewhere, but has anyone seen a 400 4spd LeMans of any body style? I just can't recall any at the moment, not that that means much lol.

I hope, as I posted earlier, that Dennis can track the original owner to find out the story behind why this car was ordered as it was.

[Jack Peters]

I have a '70 WS block and believe it is out of a LeMams. Had it since the mid '80's. I remember it being a gold car w/buckets and 400 call outs. Will have to check the sn on the block. It had a broken rod that did some damage to it but tested out okay. Bottom of one cyl. was where it was done but is okay. Even have the numbers by the shop still on tha block.
I guess only PHS could tell what it rely is.

[Diego]

Originally Posted by 70Steve

I always thought that apparently it was available, just nobody ordered one?

That's not what you said before:

"I can't believe the amount of options that could or couldn't be ordered for no apparent reason (...RAIV Formula)…" which is why I responded in the way that I did.

I don't think I've seen any printed matter saying it was available though?

Well, 1970 was a funny year. It took forever to bring the RAIV to the F-bodies, presumably because they were trying to develop the SD RAIV. And then, when they did, they gave it the GTO's hp rating and not the scaled-back Firebird's rating. I did a quick search for ads and didn't have much luck but with one, which didn't even get into the RAIV for the T/A. (However, check this interesting ad out: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jk1971/4057554663/)

Re the 455 Judge, early brochure states 455 not available with The Judge, but history shows that at some point it was actually available. What prompted that change later in the model year?

I dunno. Bean counters? Dealer demand? Really, what's strange to me was that the 455 was not available on the Judge at the start of the model year, rather than the fact that it was introduced mid-year.

Why could you only order black or sandlewood colored interiors with a bench seat in 70 GTO's yet other colour bench seats were available in the LeMans Sport?

While not on the up-and-up when it comes to interiors, perhaps it was because the LeMans Sport was of a different grade? Or that only a certain amount of configurations were available and, hence, the bench was the popular choice for the Sport while the buckets were the same for the GTO?

In regards to a 400 4dr 4 spd, and if any 4 door looked like a candidate to be ordered as a factory 400, it is Dan and Dennis' car, what with the gauges and steering wheel.

Gauges and steering wheels are mutually exclusive from the engine and/or tranny. I've seen plenty of stick cars that didn't have tachs. I guess I don't see the connection?

On the order form (for a LeMans Sport atleast) it states under Transmissions that the M20 is not available for 1bbl 6 cyl, 2bbl 400 and 4bbl 400, leaving the only available engine the 2bbl 350.

I haven't seen the order form, so I can't comment. But don't forget there also was an M21 tranny, although I would think if one was available, both would have been available.

This is another example of weird option availability on the paperwork...why did they O.K. a 3spd 400, but not a 4 spd?

Maybe they felt only a column shifter would be appropriate for a 4-door? I don't put much stock in that, but just introducing something to think about.

Maybe I've missed something somewhere, but has anyone seen a 400 4spd LeMans of any body style?

One member here has a GT-37 with that combo. And there are others out there too. The number floating around for all A-bodies save the GTO is less than 300.

[SD455DJ]

Originally Posted by 70Steve

Hi Dennis,

That silver car that John Sawruk spoke to you about, was that a plain Tempest or a GT37? Was it the one he wrote about in the 80's?

In regards to the Magnum cars, I noticed in one of the old pics in the showroom is a white one, complete with a puny single exhaust! They mustn't have got around to changing it before the promo! (Anyone have the pic handy?)

I can't believe the amount of options that could or couldn't be ordered for no apparent reason (eg. no buckets in sedans, RAIV Formula, 455 Judge etc to name a few). If the brochures and the salesman didn't mention it or know, how the heck was Joe Average meant to know!? Imagine the original owner of your car looking at the brochure and speccing it up in his head...V8, 4 spd, looks like it has to be a 350, so off he goes and orders that exact spec. I love this sort of stuff for some reason.

Even if no 400 4 spd 4 doors were built, I think your car will clearly prove how wrong it was not to build them.

If you find out some more about the car Diego mentioned, would you mind sharing please?

70Steve,

The car was a plain old Tempest (not a mid-year T-37) 2-dr post coupe that was ordered in early September of '69.

Heck, my brother Dan and I knew more about the new cars and options than any of the salesman at the time. When we (14 yrs old) went with my Dad to order a new Cutlass, the salesman didn't know what the W-31 option was. We almost had our Dad convinced that the W-31 was a great towing package for our pop-up camper, but he saw through our little scheme and ordered A/C instead (almost the same cost). I remember the saleperson always looking at the brochure to find out what was available like that meant more than his official sales guide.

If I find out more about from CDN2PLS2, I'll certainly share it.

Dennis

[Diego]

I have chatted with Mattison about the silver car and, based on the info Sawruk has given in his old article (which incorrectly claimed it was a RAIII), he didn't find the invoice on the car.

Or that's what I recall from my conversation with him.

[pontiacmark]

There was an Atoll Blue Tempest/LeMans 2 door hardtop locally that I seemed to recall having a WT 400 /M20 combo. Lost track of the car though.

[SD455DJ]

Originally Posted by Diego

I have chatted with Mattison about the silver car and, based on the info Sawruk has given in his old article (which incorrectly claimed it was a RAIII), he didn't find the invoice on the car.

Or that's what I recall from my conversation with him.

Deigo, John heard, probably through his son Jeff, that I was really interested in finding a regular Tempest (non-T-37/GT-37), just as he was and talked to me at the 2005, or 2006 PSMCDR in Stanton. Now my memory may be bad, but I do recall some sort of documentation on that particular car. I was geeked enough to copy the VIN and then put somewhere safe the even I can't remember where I put it. It may be in my Judge since it went back in Dan's trailer at the end of racing. It hasn't been out of its cocoon since then. I'm going to make a concerted effort to find that little piece of paper John ripped off for me to write the VIN on. If I remember correctly, the car still existed, where and by whom, I don't know. I wonder if Jeff knows anything about it. You don't happen to have his email address do you? I just love this detective work!

Dennis

[SD455DJ]

Originally Posted by pontiacmark

There was an Atoll Blue Tempest/LeMans 2 door hardtop locally that I seemed to recall having a WT 400 /M20 combo. Lost track of the car though.

Pontiacmark, Time to find that car to see if it not only exists, but if its real. Dennis

[SD455DJ]

Deigo, I don't doubt JM not finding that invoice on teh Silver Tempest. I wonder if it is eveen real, or maybe a 350 car with a 400 transplant. I don't remember ever seeing a 400 4-spd Tempest/LeMans prior to the GT-37 introduction in February '70. Do you know when the Mangnum 400 T's were available to the public from Knafel??? Dennis

[SD455DJ]

Originally Posted by Jack Peters

I have a '70 WS block and believe it is out of a LeMams. Had it since the mid '80's. I remember it being a gold car w/buckets and 400 call outs. Will have to check the sn on the block. It had a broken rod that did some damage to it but tested out okay. Bottom of one cyl. was where it was done but is okay. Even have the numbers by the shop still on tha block.
I guess only PHS could tell what it rely is.

Jack, Could you send me the VIN off the block and I'll ask JM for a verbal check on it.

Dennis

[PONTIAC LARRY]

Cool car, reminds me of the enjoyment of my first car a 68 Lemans 2dr hardtop 350 2V 4spd M20 , 3.23 rear. White, Red buckets, no console. One time I needed a replacement Z bar and some how found one at the local wrecking yard off a 69 Lemans 4 door hardtop 350 2V floorshifted 3spd? buckets seats, no console.. neat 4 door bucket seat floorshifted Lemans!

[SD455DJ]

70Steve,

The GTO got the split bench when ordered, so it was covered with the Morrikide weave upholstry, which was more elaborate than the regular bench seats standard in the LeMans, so limited the colors to Black and Sandlewood.

One day, Dan and I will dig further to see if we can get some leads from the selling dealer if they have any sales records from back then. It will be a long shot. John (GTO4Dr) talked to the owner's son who said his father bought the car back in 1980, or so, from a used car lot in northern California. Other than knowing the dealership from the PHS, the trail gets cold quickly. He didn't remember who the used car dealer was, and it probably doesn't exist anymore. We'll try to run a title search through the CA DMV to see if that gives us any usable information.

As for the Silver Tempest being the subject of John Sawruk's articles about Tempests/T-37's/GT-37's and the RAIII 400, I'm not sure. I think it helped, but it was his '71 GT-37 that pushed him to investigate the non-GTO history further.

One interesting thought is our LeMans has a 03B date on the trim tag, so it was built along side the GT-37's that were able to get the 400 with a 4-spd. Maybe the other body styles could get the 400 4-spd combo later in the model year. It could happen...

Dennis

[Diego]

Dennis, Jeff is over on the v8Buick site. He's somewhat out of the loop with the Internet, though, but you may get lucky. I've got some stuff to work on, so if you don't have any luck finding him there just let me know and I'll find out his contact info in due time.

Also, you raise an interesting point about the Magnum 400's production date. However, I've never had the impression that the 400 stick was a mid-year intro, but ya never know.

[Jack Peters]

Dennis. You have mail.

[70Steve]

Originally Posted by Diego

That's not what you said before:

"I can't believe the amount of options that could or couldn't be ordered for no apparent reason (...RAIV Formula)…" which is why I responded in the way that I did.

Hi Diego, isn't this a case of an option being available for no apparent reason? ie the lack of any advertising.

Well, 1970 was a funny year. It took forever to bring the RAIV to the F-bodies, presumably because they were trying to develop the SD RAIV. And then, when they did, they gave it the GTO's hp rating and not the scaled-back Firebird's rating. I did a quick search for ads and didn't have much luck but with one, which didn't even get into the RAIV for the T/A. (However, check this interesting ad out: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jk1971/4057554663/)

That's a cool ad for sure, can you translate it please? I can make out some of it.
I've been thinking about starting a thread for 70 A body ads. There seems to be a few odd ones out there. Thanks for the link, I will save it.

I dunno. Bean counters? Dealer demand? Really, what's strange to me was that the 455 was not available on the Judge at the start of the model year, rather than the fact that it was introduced mid-year.



While not on the up-and-up when it comes to interiors, perhaps it was because the LeMans Sport was of a different grade? Or that only a certain amount of configurations were available and, hence, the bench was the popular choice for the Sport while the buckets were the same for the GTO?

GTO and LeMans Sport had the same upholstery. My 70 GTO has a black split bench and Dads LeMans Sport has a blue split bench, just thought it was weird when I discovered you couldn't order a blue bench in a 70 GTO. Black and sandlewood only it seems. I think you could get gold and green in a LeMans Sport 4 door too.

Gauges and steering wheels are mutually exclusive from the engine and/or tranny. I've seen plenty of stick cars that didn't have tachs. I guess I don't see the connection?

It might be a stretch on my part, but I just feel that someone that coughed up for a nice wood wheel and the extra gauges could have been a prime candidate for a 400.

I haven't seen the order form, so I can't comment. But don't forget there also was an M21 tranny, although I would think if one was available, both would have been available.

I should have added that the M21 shows as not being available on LeMans Sports, according to the GTO/LeMans Sport order form. It would be interesting to see the Lemans order form.
Maybe they felt only a column shifter would be appropriate for a 4-door? I don't put much stock in that, but just introducing something to think about.

If I'm reading this right the 3 spd manual was standard on the column, a 3spd floor shift was optional for all but the 6cyl. The 4 speed floor shift was only available with the 2 bbl 350.


One member here has a GT-37 with that combo. And there are others out there too. The number floating around for all A-bodies save the GTO is less than 300.

I failed to mention to exclude GT37's, sorry about that, I knew what I meant when I mentioned if anyone had seen a 400 4spd Le Mans.

Just out of interest, that figure of 300, could that be GT37 only?

*This was all multi quoted, I don't know what happened.

[Diego]

You have to break up the quotes individually using code, which is what I did. No worries, but I don't have the time to address each one at the moment. :-)

Regarding the number for 400 Tempests/LeManses, want to say it's for all of them and not GT-37s. It could have been for all trannys too, but can't remember for sure, so it's best for someone else to chime in and clarify.

Do you have a jpeg of the order form?

[SD455DJ]

Originally Posted by Diego

Dennis, Jeff is over on the v8Buick site. He's somewhat out of the loop with the Internet, though, but you may get lucky. I've got some stuff to work on, so if you don't have any luck finding him there just let me know and I'll find out his contact info in due time.

Also, you raise an interesting point about the Magnum 400's production date. However, I've never had the impression that the 400 stick was a mid-year intro, but ya never know.

Deigo,

I sure wish I could state with more authority that there were 400 stick A-bodies of all body styles available, just not advertised, but I can't until I see proof of one with my own eyes, either a real car, or build sheet, etc. I haven't seen one myself, but that doesn't mean you couldn't order one or that none exist. I was surmizing that when the first factory official announcement of the 400 4-spd was available in the GT-37, that gave license to rest of the A-bodies to get them and was most likely available, even if not mentioned anywhere in writing. More of my obscure theory.

Dennis

[north]

I remember back when the POCI national was in New Hampshire (95 or so) there was a really nice Expresso brown 2 door hardtop LeMans with a 350-2v, M-20, car had a factory hoodtach and rally 2 wheels with stock GTO style resonator duals, sweetest little LeMans I ever saw