[johnta1]

Adding this web page link to this thread for Pattern Judges.


Pattern Judges Table

Added 326HO-Lemans' pattern Judge to this page.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

The 000xx and 00xxx order numbers being related to Zone Counts instead of the plants or the weeks was a pretty major break through.
That was a pesky detail that took a large pool of samples.
All credit to North.

The 1B Fremont Buildsheet car with 00143 order number is a big mystery .
Former PY member Sweet Muscle owned that car way back.
Sold it - and it went to Japan.
A Japanese export handler came on here years later , after Japan started luxury taxing their use all to he|| , and was looking for potential buyers.

No one ever had the Invoice for it.
Maybe it will reappear someday , with an invoice.
The 00143 order number is weird with it being built so early.

[johnta1]

Here is North's data with mine added:


Bold is mine; * is not in North's data

ZONE D.O.N. (pattern #)
01 - 29, 54, 57, 64, 65
02 - 46, 51, 70, 74, 76, 119
03 - 19, 34, 35 40, 49, 55, 55, 67, 78
04 - 45, 46, 51 52, 59
05 -
06 - 44, 46
07 - 27, 40, 52
08 - 18, 41, 58 35 *
09 - 21, 24, 27, 41, 42, 54, 56, 66
10 - 32, 59, 73, 77
11 -
12 - 21, 49, 59, 61, 64
13 - 39, 41, 45
14 - 22, 33
15 - 22, 31
16 - 43, 62 30 *, 50 *
17 - 20, 29, 42, 43, 56, 58
18 - 29, 35, 47, 51, 61, 71 81 * 22 *,
19 - 17, 27 24 *
20 - 17, 31, 45, 47 none
21 - 33, 35, 55, 72 53 *
22 - 51 none
23 - 17, 45, 71, 86 29 *, 60 *, 85 *
24 - 17, 19, 51, 62, 80, 89, 103, 106, 118, 119, 29 *, 143 *, 95 *
25 - 26, 32, 45, 53 *, 61, 62, 63
27 - 34, 37
28 -
29 - 17, 36, 58, 61, 71 (?) *, 81 *

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Great list John.
Slipped my mind to compile those and make a roll call thread.
Will do it this week

[cv340]

Hello North, wondering if I could catch you here. Any comments on this car matching numbers engine one repaint 35 years ago.. Is it what you guys call a pattern car? Have you seen an earlier car from Baltimore? Any input would be appreciated from a mopar guy thank you so much.

[johnta1]

That is not a 'Pattern Judge'.
One , it would have to be a Zone car, which this is a Customer ordered car.
Two, the M-21 and a couple other options make it not a Pattern Judge.


What is the cowl tag date?

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

It's very very similar to another pre-release Canadian car I remember from the past.
Basically identical but I don't recall it having a wood wheel on it like this one.
There are a few known 01B body date cars , but not many.

It's not a Pattern Car .
But has its own uniqueness being pre-release to Canada , non-pattern , but pattern'istic in some degrees.

[cv340]

Thank you very much for some input here. It may not be a pattern car in the sense. It’s not a Usa built car or built for I should say.. I’m not interested in it being a pattern car… not sure that affects the value. I’m just interested in how early it is or how early it was actually built or shipped. This is the earliest Car shipped in the 69 registry for judges? actually, there is one other car with the same ship date. Do you concur on that? It’s the earliest showing documented 69 Judge times two? Thank you.

[johnta1]

Just noticed this thread doesn't have the latest web page on the Pattern Judges.

Pattern Judges with Comments

This will help on deciding what is Pattern Judges.

BVZ's thread on Pattern Judges


Yours is probably a very early Judge. I have one with a lot earlier PHS shipped date. Don't know the cowl tag date.

Yours is probably a 01C?

[johnta1]

This is one with earlier PHS shipped date, but a little higher VIN.


Added another one except buildsheet: Jan.4th
it is a Pattern Judge

[cv340]

Yeah, the car we’re talking about here is a 01B car the Canadian car and it hasn’t shown up yet in that registry. I’ll make sure it gets there. ..early but in its own class…?

[cv340]

Originally Posted by johnta1

This is one with earlier PHS shipped date, but a little higher VIN.


Added another one except buildsheet: Jan.4th
it is a Pattern Judge

So is this a 01 a car? What is the actual ship date? I can’t read that stuff on my telephone.. My car won’t have a build as it’s from Baltimore.. what colour was this car you’re calling a pattern Car I thought they all had to be orange?

[johnta1]

The PHS pic is an early Judge, don't have a pic of it's cowl tag.


The Build sheet pic is for a Pattern Judge.
It has 01/04 invoice date. Which would usually be a day or 2 before the cowl tag date. Don't have a pic of the cowl tag for it either. This one could be 01A or 01B but not sure how they did the tags for the Pattern Judges, some are all over the place.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

We don't get email notifications about new posts like we used to.
So just have to wait until North catches the new posts.
I don't have access to my old files to compare the other early Canadian car(s)
But North will have them.

The cowl tag for the new Canadian discovery will have the build week on it.
edit - I see you have stated it is 01B , missed that in the title line of the post .

They evidently let some loose to Canada before the Main Release in USA.
There were also some let loose in USA before the Main Release in USA.

The Fremont Buildsheet for Automatic Pattern car has a preference date of Jan 4 ,
but I don't think it was actually started that soon.
We never got an invoice or trim tag for it. So it's mysterious.
All I remember about it was it was sold to a Japanese buyer over 20 years ago , then they wanted to sell it back into the USA around 15 years ago when Japan levied high luxury tax on the ownership.

If you are looking for this new discovery to be the "first" of anything - it "might" could qualify as one of the first ones exported to Canada.
Might mean something to a Canadian collector.
Shipping date is not a value price data point.

Lowest VIN per plant might mean something.
But they didn't always come across the finished line in VIN order.
Lowest Invoice Number overall - is where the biggest overall winner is.

[cv340]

Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin

We don't get email notifications about new posts like we used to.
So just have to wait until North catches the new posts.
I don't have access to my old files to compare the other early Canadian car(s)
But North will have them.

The cowl tag for the new Canadian discovery will have the build week on it.
edit - I see you have stated it is 01B , missed that in the title line of the post .

They evidently let some loose to Canada before the Main Release in USA.
There were also some let loose in USA before the Main Release in USA.

The Fremont Buildsheet for Automatic Pattern car has a preference date of Jan 4 ,
but I don't think it was actually started that soon.
We never got an invoice or trim tag for it. So it's mysterious.
All I remember about it was it was sold to a Japanese buyer over 20 years ago , then they wanted to sell it back into the USA around 15 years ago when Japan levied high luxury tax on the ownership.

If you are looking for this new discovery to be the "first" of anything - it "might" could qualify as one of the first ones exported to Canada.
Might mean something to a Canadian collector.
Shipping date is not a value price data point.

Lowest VIN per plant might mean something.
But they didn't always come across the finished line in VIN order.
Lowest Invoice Number overall - is where the biggest overall winner is.

Holy cow I’m definitely talking to the right people here. I thank you so much for that very informative response. I was actually happy knowing it was a very early car. Would North know where are my invoice position would be? I’m just a little short of understanding where the actual invoice number is found. Thank you so much, Barron..

[cv340]

If it’s OK for me to add, I received an email from Mike Noun on this car. after reviewing the Pontiac Canadian documents, he thinks this is an early pre-run car making it very rare being a 01B car from Baltimore.. from what I understand a pattern car with extra options, including the HD radiator, the rear D fog and the 390 gears. .. a pattern car with added options, which could vary likely translate as an early promotional car. Sold to GM Canada, and shipped to Vancouver Dealer… supports the documentation and pictures we have. I’ll dig hard for a build sheet, but I just don’t think I’m gonna find one being a Baltimore car, but who knows!. This is the earliest built Canadian judge that shares a shipping date with one other Canadian Judge… the vin on my car is roughly 300 earlier than the second one I just mentioned here.

[johnta1]

Do you have a pic of the cowl tag?

I have a sheet for a Judge that may be the one you talk about.
The invoice number is 2 before yours, the ID# is 2 after yours.
So they could have been next to each other.

On the cowl tag is a set of numbers that may tell even more.

But both of these are not Zone cars, they were ordered by customer.
(the PBL432438 on your sheet)

[cv340]

Yes..here it is. do you mean you have a picture of the build sheet thank you Collin

[johnta1]

I have the one like your invoice for it:

[cv340]

Wow, yeah that is a very similar build almost identical. Which one has the earlier Vin number and do you know if that car exists…thank you so much any thoughts on whether a customer ordered car could’ve been used for promotional at a dealership? hard to imagine how anyone else could get this many options on an early car without having some pull?