[pontibeast]

I am sorry to hear about all your headaches with this engine. I am going through a minor version of it with my 455 and it is nerve racking. Hope is settles out soon and your back on the road.

[JSPONT]

Originally Posted by gtobully

....will have to check on clearances and end play. The detonation potential is the main reason they sent out the Distributor for analysis

Detonation will hurt rod bearings, usually not main bearings. Your builder seems to lack some knowledge about your engine. Might be time to get someone else to have a look.

[lust4speed]

Posting photos of the rod and main bearings would be beneficial.

["QUICK-SILVER"]

Originally Posted by gtobully

I have 3.23 gears and ran it in 3rd gear at about 3k rpm for a couple of miles on the freeway, but had taken it on the freeway already after this build. .

Originally Posted by gtobully

UPDATE...the motor was taken apart to find several bearings were quite heated, and the engine oil black.

Got to ask, what brand and grade of oil is being tested in this engine?

And that last post went on to say..

Originally Posted by gtobully

"New rods and bearings were installed, and the motor put on the Dyno."
" They then opened up the motor, and, saw premature wear across the bearings evenly."

Can't help but think something is going on here that just plain ain't right.

[Formulas]

Oil passage question?... the engine lead a productive life once so unless the assembler left out a plug seems like that wouldn't be an issue..and a left out plug should of been noticeable on the gage.

Filter bypass in the housing working ?
To tight of bearing tolerances ?

Be careful when a block crank saddle is overheated it will warp and go out of line..
One time very long time ago I burnt a rear main because I went on a long bonsai run when I was using only a AN-8 remote oil cooler set up in a very loose engine and it starved for oil.. put in a new bearing and the crank would not turn, had to get it honed..

Also I have to wonder the condition of the crankshaft, if its in spec.

.

[Half-Inch Stud]

on thaaat note; was there tappng noises?

[HWYSTR455]

If a carb dumps gas into the oil, it gets there past the rings, so curious as to what the cyl walls look like. And with that said, what the rings look like. (you should not only be checking the carb, should be looking at the fuel pump too)

Wash out from way rich can take out mains & rods, but usually running that fat is caught early on, since the car/engine wouldn't run very well to begin with.

Send the distributor out? What's wrong with putting a timing light on it? Did they? Do they know what the timing even is?

Definitely would be asking for clearance specs/blueprint info. They had to have targeted something. Or maybe not, which may be why you are where you are.

Before I would start guessing/digging in block passage issues, I would be double checking the oil pump pickup, make sure it's not sucking the bottom, and make sure it has at least 6 quarts in it. 5 quarts is not enough, and it can suck the pan dry at RPM. Shoot, most of the time 6 quarts is not enough...

I agree, pics of the bearings. And bring someone who is knowledgeable with you next time you go to the shop. It's better to have 2 people asking questions.

.

[track73]

My father's '78 Catalina with a 301 loaded up with gas because of a stuck needle valve. When he tried to clear it out by flooring the gas pedal the engine broke. I believe a connecting rod or 2 let go.

[gtobully]

I've tried to upload pics of bearings as JPG files but they keep failing. And it does not give a reason that I can see. But, some are very dark and brown, others still silver. That is from when it let loose.

[JSPONT]

Originally Posted by gtobully

I've tried to upload pics of bearings as JPG files but they keep failing. And it does not give a reason that I can see. But, some are very dark and brown, others still silver. That is from when it let loose.

Right click on them, hit resize, they are probably to big, hit small size, then try and upload the small ones.

[rtanner]

Man I feel sorry for this guy, my only advise is just like going to the doctor, If he keeps giving you the same stuff over and over and your still sick, you better damn well go see another doctor

[NeighborsComplaint]

Originally Posted by track73

My father's '78 Catalina with a 301 loaded up with gas because of a stuck needle valve. When he tried to clear it out by flooring the gas pedal the engine broke. I believe a connecting rod or 2 let go.

Probably hydro-locked it. With contaminated oil, the bearings die a slow death with no drama.

Al in all, the OP's issues sound like sloppy machining and too tight clearances.

[73ta]

I'm on my 4th engine in my car. I built this one as these so called Pontiac expert shops and high end speed shop that did my previous two were junk. Had a local good machine shop do the machining and I did the spec checking and assembly. Nobody will take the time to do it right but the owner of the car! All of these shops just slap them together. The Pontiac expert's engine had a rod knock at startup, even though he supposedly dynoed the engine. He had to replace the crank and redo it. Even after that it leaked oil like a siv and burned oil. Local builder that does high end Chevy race cars built my 2nd short block. Rings never seated, burned oil like crazy. My current engine, rings seated immediately, not even a puff of oil smoke at startup. All of the clearances from the machine work were spot on. Took my time and checked everything before and during assembly. I will never let anyone assemble an engine for me ever again.

[track73]

I have built 30 engines in my life. 6 have been Briggs 5 horse race engines, 2 small block Fords,13 Small block Chevy stock car engines a 250 inline Chevy engine and the rest Pontiac v8's. None of these engines had difficulty in ring sealing and none had rod bearing issues that were related to improper assembly. Oh, I had dropped valves, broken conecting rods and oil starved bearings (Oil pump belt came off)and an air filter stud getting swallowed up,but they all were checked and double checked. I wasn't doing it for a living so the time spent wasn't and issue. I crew chiefed a Late Model that the owner had the engine "professionally" built. It didn't last 2 hotlaps. So it's a crap shoot if you don't know how to do stuff. I feel your pain.

[mgarblik]

73TA: I think it is great that you built your own engine and it runs great, is dry and all sealed up. It is a great feeling of satisfaction to do as much of the work on your hobby car as possible. I don't want people to feel however, that no shop in the country is capable of building a quality Pontiac engine or any engine for that matter. There are many talented machinists all over the country that really care about what they do and build great engines for their customers, Pontiac and others. The shop I work with builds every engine the same, period. Whether it's a Harley, a Pontiac, a comp. eliminator SBC that will run 13,000 RPM's or a 14 HP Kohler for a Cub Cadet restoration, all the work is done with the same precision. They have one way, the right way. Occasionally, the right way can get expensive as TIME must be spent to make everything as good as possible. Customers must understand, that's what it takes to get the desired results. By doing the final measurements and assembly yourself, you can save a ton of money and have that satisfaction. It takes me about 40 hours to properly measure, dress and assemble a V-8 engine. Someone has to pay for this or do it themselves. Not saying you tried to save any money with any of your builds, you may have just had shoddy work done. I always remind customers wanting to do a proper engine because it is so true; GOOD< CHEAP >FAST. Pick any two. There is no way anyone can have all three.

[NeighborsComplaint]

If you rely on the work of others (machining) and do your own assembly, your chances for success actually improve. The catch is, you have to invest in inspection tools to check the machine work and a good torque wrench. Some find the assembly of a motor daunting, but there are so many resources on the web that anyone with a mechanical aptitude can do it.

You have to be able to check the machine shop's work if you build it yourself. You need inspection tools like a micrometer and Vernier calipers plus snap gauges to check bore, rod bearing and main bearing inside diameters. You can't skimp on the tools as they have to be as good as the ones the shop is using if you're checking their work.

The car I currently own originally had "pro-built" motor ('70's funny car driver turned speed shop owner). It had a history of spun rod bearings and rocker to retainer clearance issues and came to me as a basket case motor along with the car.

I dry fitted the existing rods and pistons and found the block had been excessively decked, the rods were all different lengths and the piston domes (Venolias) on the longest rods were hitting the cylinder heads (722 heads) when hot causing rod bearing failures. The valve geometry was all wrong from the excessive decking and standard Dport (short) pushrods so the builder ground notches in the beams of the Harland & Sharps rockers to clear the retainers.

There is no excuse for a pro builder to turn out a motor like that.

[NeighborsComplaint]

If you rely on the work of others (machining) and do your own assembly, your chances for success actually improve. The catch is, you have to invest in inspection tools to check the machine work and a good torque wrench. Some find the assembly of a motor daunting, but there are so many resources on the web that anyone with a mechanical aptitude can do it.

You have to be able to check the machine shop's work if you build it yourself. You need inspection tools like a micrometer and Vernier calipers plus snap gauges to check bore, rod bearing and main bearing inside diameters. You can't skimp on the tools as they have to be as good as the ones the shop is using if you're checking their work.

The car I currently own originally had "pro-built" motor ('70's funny car driver turned speed shop owner). It had a history of spun rod bearings and rocker to retainer clearance issues and came to me as a basket case motor along with the car.

I dry fitted the existing rods and pistons and found the block had been excessively decked, the rods were all different lengths and the piston domes (Venolias) on the longest rods were hitting the cylinder heads (722 heads) when hot causing rod bearing failures. Of course the valve geometry was all wrong from the excessive decking. The builder ground notches in the beams of the Harland & Sharps rockers to clear the retainers.

There is no excuse for a pro builder to turn out a motor like that.

[73ta]

Originally Posted by mgarblik

73TA: I think it is great that you built your own engine and it runs great, is dry and all sealed up. It is a great feeling of satisfaction to do as much of the work on your hobby car as possible. I don't want people to feel however, that no shop in the country is capable of building a quality Pontiac engine or any engine for that matter. There are many talented machinists all over the country that really care about what they do and build great engines for their customers, Pontiac and others. The shop I work with builds every engine the same, period. Whether it's a Harley, a Pontiac, a comp. eliminator SBC that will run 13,000 RPM's or a 14 HP Kohler for a Cub Cadet restoration, all the work is done with the same precision. They have one way, the right way. Occasionally, the right way can get expensive as TIME must be spent to make everything as good as possible. Customers must understand, that's what it takes to get the desired results. By doing the final measurements and assembly yourself, you can save a ton of money and have that satisfaction. It takes me about 40 hours to properly measure, dress and assemble a V-8 engine. Someone has to pay for this or do it themselves. Not saying you tried to save any money with any of your builds, you may have just had shoddy work done. I always remind customers wanting to do a proper engine because it is so true; GOOD< CHEAP >FAST. Pick any two. There is no way anyone can have all three.

The frustrating thing is money and time have never been the object. I don't mind paying more for good work. The short block was done by a shop that builds motors for offshore racing boats and comp eliminator engines. Apparently they don't give a hoot about a street Pontiac engine. The other engine built by the Pontiac expert in S. Cal was torn down after about 7,000 miles because of oil leaks and consumption. Gave them an open check book to build & dyno it. I supplied the parts minus the heads, they did the cam selection, port work, assembly & dyno. Never recieved the dyno sheets, engine had a rod knock at startup. I had to ship it back at a cost of $600 for them to redo it and it returned leaking oil out of almost every gasket.

I asked on many Pontiac boards for recommendations for shop/machinists in N. Cal and never got one that didn't have as many good stories as bad. I think the art of machining and building engines has died with our generation, I'm 60. I assembled this engine out of frustration that I could not find anybody in central California that would do the job right! It did take many hours to assemble it and I don't have all of the measuring tools, but I got by, (palstiguage, micrometer, dial indicator, degree wheel). I had Dave at SD Performance cnc port the intake and Eheads and pick the cam. Turned out excellent. He estimates 550 Hp and it is smooth as silk. I can lug this engine in overdrive with no issues and it pulls strong all the way to 5,700!

Used one of the BOP oil pan 1 piece rubber gaskets and 1 piece rear main seals along with the right stuff sealant on all the other gaskets. so far no leaks!

[mgarblik]

Thanks for your reply and detail and I understand your frustration. Being in OH, we are blessed with many quality machine shops in state and in IN, TN and even MI are not that far away. In my post, I don't want to indicate we never have problems. We have many of them and do our best to overcome in each situation and send a customer home happy. Just last month we built a SBC solid roller 350 that was expected to make 600HP. First pull on the dyno it breaks a T@D shaft rocker arm in two at the trunion. Owner supplied the shaft system. He calls T@D and sends all the stuff back to them. They insist something is wrong with the build or the geometry or piston to valve clearance and refuse to do anything to remedy the situation. He ends up eating $1300.00 worth of T@D junk. We buy and install Crower stud mounted steel rockers and a stud girdle for half the price. It makes 606 HP @ 7400 RPM. We make 23 pulls, no issues. But the customer is still out the $1300.00. So he is "sort of" happy. A good shop will go the extra mile to try and resolve issues. In all honesty, a Pontiac is a simple engine to build as far as V-8 engines go. I wish you were closer to the midwest! Best of luck with your engine, and YOU built it. That's worth allot in my book.

[dataway]

I would imagine a shop has to really know their stuff to make money assembling engines. They have to have a cut and dried system that works every time. A good machinist sets his stuff up, does the job, no mistakes, no surprises .... assembly is completely different. Can entail a ton of time consuming measurements, corrections, dis-assembly, reassembly etc. A shop might do stellar machine work, and then still just throw an engine together compared to the hobbyist that will spend countless hours making sure everything is perfect. A shop is a business .... and time is money. Just a few snags in assembly can rob the shop of it's entire profit for assembly .... so they don't have a lot of leeway for very careful, perfectionist type work ... the ones that do, charge huge, and well deserved, money for their services.
Building race engines for motorcycles ... I don't think I ever saw a shop that would put an engine together as well as a "racer/builder" ... but then I don't blame them, they couldn't stay in business do work that way.
Very tough business building entire engines .... not something I would want to do. I had plenty of people ask me to build them vintage race bike engines ... no way. My engines that performed well on the track had many, many hours in them ... could not do that for a price any sane person would want to pay.