[Sirrotica]

Just another tidbit of info I gleaned from the Baldwin filter site. There are lots of on PY people that use the B9 Baldwin filter or any number of other brands of filters that are designed to be used on Pontiac Stratostreak V8s. Since Pontiac and evidently all the other manufacturers have designed a bypass valve into the engine there is no internal bypass in the B9 and like other filters designed for engines with bypass valves.

It is my understanding that the old Lee filters had bypass valves in all of their filters and had 2 sets of media. If the bypass valve opened it sent oil through a less restrictive media so that 100% of the oil got filtered to some degree, we don't know what degree that was though. Eliminating the factory engine bypass would work with this design, however it appears this filter design has been discontinued.

Blocking the bypass valve with no relief valve of the system IMO is asking for trouble. There is the relief in the oil pump, but it only limits the system pressure to 60-80 lbs. If there is a filter restriction your still going to get between 60-80 PSI pushing against everything after the pump.

The bypass valve in a typical Pontiac engine is set to dump at 12-16 lbs. differential, not a huge difference and if your even close to 3,000 RPM and up your still trying to put everything the pump can deliver through the oil filter with maybe 3 sq ft of media. Thick oil, partially blocked media, is going to restrict the flow to the internal engine parts that need as much oil as possible for cooling and lubrication.

Heating up bearing journals by lack of oil does 2 things, the hot parts swell to a larger diameter than normal, which closes up the bearing clearance, and also decreases the oil wedge used to keep the moving parts from making contact.

Filtering the oil through a by pass filter to keep it clean as possible, and causing zero restriction in the oiling system, such as a full flow filter causes would seem to be a huge improvement and add an extra safety margin by offering no restriction after the pump and before the internal oiled parts. I know it surely isn't going to be any disadvantage by plumbing the oil system this way, Since Pontiac engineers have made the parts to actually do this over 55 years ago it's already been done and it worked fine.

Cool, clean, and dry oil is the lifeblood of all engines and does nothing but extend the longevity of any and all internally lubed parts.

Plenty of people here will invest plenty of money in all the top of the line Pontiac engine parts, and then leave them to fend for themselves with the factory issue full flow filter system and not give it a second thought. I've heard that since these cars in the hobby are driven infrequently the factory system is just fine. Think for a moment about high performance engines and how frequently they are freshened. Wearing a street engine out in 20,000 miles or less, to me isn't normal. Granted these engines are stressed more than a bone stock driver is, but if extremely clean oil is most likely going to extend that freshening out at least another 50%. The ring seal is going to stay better longer and on a leak down test it will lose less past the rings getting more mileage between tear downs. Timing components will surely last longer.

Flat tappet engines may live longer with cleaner oil, we hear a ton about flat tappet cams wiping lobes without any real answers of why. Lower zinc levels has been the scapegoat, even though people use the recommended additives the cam lobes are still going away.

Caterpillar, Cummins, and a host of other top engine manufacturers recommend eliminating all particulate over 5 microns and in their studies the 5-10 micron particulate causes the majority of engine wear. It's all there in black and white. Your standard full flow Pontiac filter, no matter what name is on the outside of it isn't going to do much better than 40 microns at a low efficiency. That means 40 microns is the minimum it will remove, and it very likely will pass through the filter media multiple times through larger pores before it is actually removed from the oil stream. 40 Microns is the smallest particulate it will remove, there are larger pores in the media it can still pass through, if and when it's caught.

It's hard for me to believe that someone would want a system as inefficient as what Detroit designed in a precision engine today......

[wheneaglesfly]

Ok. You have my intrest.
More details of what you have please.
Driving home in my 63. G.P.

[wheneaglesfly]

Man its quiet now.

[tom s]

My marine C12s are 755@2300.Tom

[TedRamAirII]

If I am reading this right....would it be OK to eliminate the full flow filter altogether and only have a bypass filter installed? So there would be NO restriction to oil flow and the bypass filtering the oil as good as possible? or is the Full Flow filter needing to be there to filter out the "big stuff" and the bypass everything else?

[wheneaglesfly]

Originally Posted by TedRamAirII

If I am reading this right....would it be OK to eliminate the full flow filter altogether and only have a bypass filter installed? So there would be NO restriction to oil flow and the bypass filtering the oil as good as possible? or is the Full Flow filter needing to be there to filter out the "big stuff" and the bypass everything else?

Its Plausible Yes.
Last and only I know of that eliminated the Pontiac oil filter all together is Bruce Fupler.

I think its RAM AIR RESTORATION MAKING THE Aluminium Filter bypass plate I have seen on Ebay in the past.
Was not Google or eBay searchable.
I went through his ebay store 10-12 pages long & stumbled across the blockoff plate for Pontiac V8's.

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by wheneaglesfly

Its Plausible Yes.
Last and only I know of that eliminated the Pontiac oil filter all together is Bruce Fupler.

I think its RAM AIR RESTORATION MAKING THE Aluminium Filter bypass plate I have seen on Ebay in the past.
Was not Google or eBay searchable.
I went through his ebay store 10-12 pages long & stumbled across the blockoff plate for Pontiac V8's.

The Flopper did that on his RACE engine, not a street engine. HUGE difference...

[Sirrotica]

Frantz used to sell an aluminum block off plate that completely eliminated the full flow filter.

Pontiac for a short time eliminated it in their T4 engine hence the block off plate with the GM casting number on it pictured earlier.

The older cars like the stovebolt six chevy pre 1962, had no filter unless you ordered the oil filter option. That filter was in a canister and was a by pass style filter. The by pass system is of course more expensive than a tin can with pleated paper in it. If you pay attention, you can get tin can filters on sale for under 2 bucks.

Yes it's possible, logical and probably an improvement on what the Detroit manufacturers have sold as the full flow oil filter. You have to know that even though the bypass style filter is a much better designed system, it cost the manufacturers 4-5 times more than the tin can that has some pleated paper that has rather large pores in it. That tin can is why your oil gets dirty and black. It leaves all the smaller dirt suspended in the oil to recirculate and slowly wear all the internally oiled parts.

Here is a quote from a online restoration site (Second Chance Garage) describing the filters used in the early cars.

Prior to 1943, most oil filters were of the by-pass variety, only filtering about 10 percent of the oil at a time. The first full-flow oil filter that cleaned 100 percent of the oil, was introduced in 1943 and became common by 1946.

The part it doesn't tell you that the 10% by pass filter does a superb job of cleaning the oil compared to the 100% filtering the full flow filter does leaving a bunch of dirt still in the oil.

It's all in the micron size and the percentage of efficiency per pass. The by pass filter is in the 98-99% efficiency per pass at sub 5 micron size. It's obvious that at 40 microns and a much less percentage of efficiency only 1 of the filters is going to keep your oil analytically clean.

You can't keep oil clean with a high volume low efficiency filter. This is precisely the reason that you have black oil and it needs changed at low mileage, 3,000, 5,000 or even 10,000 miles on engine oil is nothing compared to running oil for 25,000 + miles 3-4 years before changing it. Even at 25,000 miles/4 years the oil is much cleaner with the by pass system than at 3,000 miles with a full flow filter.

If you read my posts that's exactly what I've done in my own diesel dually since I started using my Frantz by pass system in 2011. One oil change and I still have the same full flow filter on it since 2011. It's there only to plug the oil filter adapter, it doesn't do much, if any filtering. The by pass is doing all the filtering at the rate of about a quart a minute. All the oil in my truck runs through the by pass filter every 10 minutes, why would I need the other filter?

If my oil is getting filthy in under 10 minutes I have a huge mechanical problem that no oil or filter is going to fix.


After installing a new full flow filter at the same time as I installed the Frantz system on my 05 GTO I now have over 13,000 miles on the oil (still golden colored) and other than changing the Frantz media the full flow will stay right where it is. I would have no problem completely eliminating the full flow filter on my LS2 GTO because it's not doing much compared to the Frantz system. I just don't need to take the time to block it off.

Big oil also doesn't want you to use a superior filter system, after brainwashing the motoring public into the 3,000 mile oil change it will put a huge hurt on their oil sales.

[wheneaglesfly]

A friend of mine used to have a 1957 Allis Chamlers WD 45 Tractor.
It had the Factory Bypass oil filtration system on it.
I maintained it for him.
The 1st time I changed the oil & filter , I dropped the filter.
Kaplunk....!
I recall the Filter was about 10 lbs heavy.
Not much.bigger that a Standard SBC - BBC filter.
Packed solid with DIRT.
I was amazed.
The old tractor had no air cleaner in place.
Missing .
But it ran like NEW.
Never Overhauled.
Original Pistons. Rings, Main & Rod Bearings.

[TedRamAirII]

Originally Posted by wheneaglesfly

A friend of mine used to have a 1957 Allis Chamlers WD 45 Tractor.
It had the Factory Bypass oil filtration system on it.
I maintained it for him.
The 1st time I changed the oil & filter , I dropped the filter.
Kaplunk....!
I recall the Filter was about 10 lbs heavy.
Not much.bigger that a Standard SBC - BBC filter.
Packed solid with DIRT.
I was amazed.
The old tractor had no air cleaner in place.
Missing .
But it ran like NEW.
Never Overhauled.
Original Pistons. Rings, Main & Rod Bearings.

No way the cylinders were good without running a air cleaner. 1# killer of tractor engines is DIRT!

I wonder if its a good idea to run JUST a bypass filter only? If so how large of a line to the bypass filter? 1/4 pipe? But the more I think about it, use the old filter to get the large stuff, and the bypass catches everything else?

[wheneaglesfly]

Originally Posted by TedRamAirII

No way the cylinders were good without running a air cleaner. 1# killer of tractor engines is DIRT!

I wonder if its a good idea to run JUST a bypass filter only? If so how large of a line to the bypass filter? 1/4 pipe? But the more I think about it, use the old filter to get the large stuff, and the bypass catches everything else?

No. It did Run Great.
My Friend no longer was in his family farm house.
I had free range of his property & Full use of his Barn & buildings..
Modern day Barn Stashes done by.me here.
I only moved at Night .
Italian way.
Pontiacs stayed safe.

I have my own Farmhouse & property now.

[Sirrotica]

The full flow isn't necessary with a by pass system at all. Many cars trucks and other equipment have gotten along fine before and after the full flow filter was instituted. Trying to filter 100% of the pressure side of anything with pressurized fluid is really a poor engineering choice, but it's really cheap to do in production, even if it lets half the finer particulate continue to circulate. When the oil is badly contaminated it even feels gritty between your fingers. At that point chucking the whole mess is the only alternative that the engineers left the motoring public with. The cycle then starts with new oil and a new strainer in a can, repeat, repeat.

If the oil can be kept free of abrasive particulate from start to finish isn't better than only having clean oil for the first part of the cycle? Then running fouled oil the last portion of the cycle.

We all know how changing oil gets put off until the car is available, and we feel like crawling under it, or taking it in to get someone else to do it. I'd bet everyone reading this has put off changing the oil and filter more than once.

And you can't forget the people that make the choices of what system, and how much does it cost to implement it during production. The bean counters and the engineers are under pressure to get a filter system on the engine as cheaply as possible. They don't care if it's super efficient. Why? because if the cars didn't wear out then people aren't going to buy new ones down the road.

If you take a step back and really scrutinize the full flow system, is it really good for you or your engine? Better alternatives exist, you just have to do be willing to do something to make it better.

[wheneaglesfly]

ok.
The Frantz is affordable.
Not $1000 , less by far.

It was used on Packards, Studabakers,

I think it was the optional dealer installed oil filter kits for the early Tempest 4cylinders also.

[b-man]

Interestingly enough, the early Pontiac V8s had the oil filter as an option. Many things we take for granted on cars today weren't necessarily standard equipment back then.

I'm sure most dealers would order cars for their inventory with the filter, but some certainly slipped through filter-less for more cost-conscious buyers.

1958 370 station wagon with no oil filter, just the block off plate:
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=623918

[wheneaglesfly]

Some of the Vintage Frantz are going for Big $$$ on Fleabay.
Just like Ram Air Pontiac Parts.

Fram filters involved early on also.

Historic.

Intersting.

[wheneaglesfly]

Be a very easy install on My 1963 Grand Prix with the 1965 Olds 425ci V8 Super Rocket I installed.

[wheneaglesfly]

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

The full flow isn't necessary with a by pass system at all. Many cars trucks and other equipment have gotten along fine before and after the full flow filter was instituted. Trying to filter 100% of the pressure side of anything with pressurized fluid is really a poor engineering choice, but it's really cheap to do in production, even if it lets half the finer particulate continue to circulate. When the oil is badly contaminated it even feels gritty between your fingers. At that point chucking the whole mess is the only alternative that the engineers left the motoring public with. The cycle then starts with new oil and a new strainer in a can, repeat, repeat.

If the oil can be kept free of abrasive particulate from start to finish isn't better than only having clean oil for the first part of the cycle? Then running fouled oil the last portion of the cycle.

We all know how changing oil gets put off until the car is available, and we feel like crawling under it, or taking it in to get someone else to do it. I'd bet everyone reading this has put off changing the oil and filter more than once.

And you can't forget the people that make the choices of what system, and how much does it cost to implement it during production. The bean counters and the engineers are under pressure to get a filter system on the engine as cheaply as possible. They don't care if it's super efficient. Why? because if the cars didn't wear out then people aren't going to buy new ones down the road.

If you take a step back and really scrutinize the full flow system, is it really good for you or your engine? Better alternatives exist, you just have to do be willing to do something to make it better.

I am a Mechanic like You.
I live for sidejobs.
Spending cash $$$$.
Talked to my Bud Ed & we have Racing work to do this week together.
Work into the long hours of night this coming week.

I am interested.
I will buy direct from You so you get the sale.

There is a promotion, make your install Video & you get $100 Off ! ?

Keep in touch.

BR

[Sirrotica]

Going back and reading some of the threads by a few of the owners of the Pontiac V8s and 194, 4 cylinders with the optional full flow filter deleted, the engine longevity on these cars was almost the same with no filter as opposed to the full flow filters. BTW Bart, thanks for posting the reference to those old threads.......

To me that speaks volumes about how efficient the full flow filters are. As long as you change oil frequently you get the same results, filter or not. To stop engine wear all of the particulate needs to be removed as small as possible all the time. Not some of the material, some of the time, and when the oil is saturated with fine abrasives, and begins to wear on the internal engine parts you may run thousands of miles before you dump the oil and stop the wear cycle.

Something to think about is all I'm saying, you be the judge...........

[wheneaglesfly]

Thinking about the Install process.
For myself and others perhaps later.
I don't wish to punch a hole in my oil pan for a return .
The Olds 425 was made only 3 years.
Parts are rare.
Oil pan shows reprduced and not correct .
Mine is Mint.
No dents or rust.

Can I bottom feed return from the Drain plug hole ?

[Sirrotica]

No need to, return it into the oil fill cap, simple as can be. You'll never have a problem buying a new oil fill cap. Tee fitting at the oil pressure switch supplies the pressure side.

Also another way is using a sandwich plate between the oil filter, and oil filter adapter/block, most of them have a pressure port and return port. You have to have an extra 1 1/2" clearance to use the sandwich plate under the bottom of the filter for the extra thickness of the plate.

Punching holes in the sheet metal (oil pans or valve covers) is not the way I do my installs. The first time I tried using sheet metal for a return line, the tap end of the fitting they supplied, twisted off. Never again.