[Giffels]

Hopefully you guys can help me out, found a thread on here from 2015 with the same issue and no solution seems to have ever been posted.

Have a 462 stroker with a remote oil filter on the firewall, WIX 51773 filter, Tomahawk windage tray, Butler 60PSI oil pump, Canton 15-451 Pickup, and Canton 15-450 Road race pan. I neglected to measure pickup clearance when I threw it together ( i know that was stupid, figured you cant really modify the pickup anyway without cutting and welding due to how small the pickup tube is.)

Car is setup for road racing, in aggressive right hand cornering you see the oil pressure drop from 60 PSI down to 30. I always lift off the throttle and let the pressure come back up.

Pan is rated at 6 quart system capacity per canton - I have tried running it over 1 quart and still seems to starve for oil. Has anyone else had this issue with a canton pan? I have also tried some restrictor pushrods to try to suss out if I was pumping all my oil to the top end, did not seem to make any difference.

Figured I would check here before yanking the motor out again to measure the pickup - would just like to have a plan of attack before pulling it, since kind of strange it is starving for oil with this baffled/ trap door pan and the canton pickup.

[Navy Horn 16]

Have you calculated the fluid volume of the piping system to and from your remote filter, and filter? Do you have an additional oil cooler?

The volume Canton says is based on a bolting it to a regular engine with OEM size filter.

[JLMounce]

Every bit of research I've done personally points to the 6 qt pan simply not being enough volume for hardcore road race stuff, especially on anything close to an R compound tire. Baffles and trap doors can only do their job if there's enough volume in the system to begin with. At the end of the day, you're still uncovering the pickup and although you didn't specifically state to this being the case, I'm assuming you see this most often on high speed sweepers?

If you're yanking the motor anyhow, I don't know if I would personally even bother with the 6qt pan. I'd go straight to the 9qt pan and I'd also plumb in an accusump.

[KEN CROCIE]

accusump-yes. Used to be required in some classes of road racing.

[nachomax]

3/4" Wix 51773 filter has a max flow rating of 7 - 9 GPM
13/16" Wix 51258 (AC PF24) has a max flow rating of 9 - 11 GPM

I don't know if that plays any role in your starvation issues. Just pointing out the differences between those two filters.

[steve25]

Swivel pick up oil pumps where not just invented just for the heck of it, but I would also go with the accusump as my first choice and you should be running a 2 Qt filter hanging off that firewall mount.

[Steve C.]

Calculating the amount of oil inside the lines to and from the remote filter and inside the filter itself is always a good idea. I use a remote mounted WIX filter that is a bit shorter than yours and found it actually holds about 3/4 quart of oil. Keep filling it until it's saturated and will take no more oil. My lines have about 1/4 quart inside them.


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[JLMounce]

Originally Posted by Steve C.

Calculating the amount of oil inside the lines to and from the remote filter and inside the filter itself is always a good idea. I use a remote mounted WIX filter that is a bit shorter than yours and found it actually holds about 3/4 quart of oil. Keep filling it until it's saturated and will take no more oil. My lines have about 1/4 quart inside them.


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I think this is a really important point. It's not just about pan capacity here. You've really got to be looking at what it takes to fill the oil filter, the lines and even the galleys in the block.

If your oil fill consists of replacing an oil filter and topping off the pan, by the time you start the engine and prime the filter, lines, galleys, there may only be a quart or two in the pan itself.

For around the town type stuff and even some spirited driving, this typically isn't an issue, but add a sticky tire and a big, fast decreasing radius right hander into the mix and bad things start happening.

[Giffels]

thanks for all the info guys, much appreciated.

I have a higher flowing filter on the way, going to do an oil change and stick the borescope up there and inspect the pickup as suggested on here. Then I can get an exact reading on the oil in the car.

If the issue persists I will be looking into a fabricated higher capacity pan or the accusump idea.

keep you posted once the filter comes in.

[HWYSTR455]

Just to comment, although Canton lists the pan as '6qt', that is the pan itself, so it should be 6+1 (for filter to fill). In some cases, another qt may be desired, so you can go 8 total, plus the remote lines requirements.

Yes on the need to calculate additional capacity for the 'added' filter system.

I have rarely ever seen a need to mod the Canton pickup, but if there's a concern, you can snake an inspection camera up there and look. The bottom brace should be no more than say an inch max from the floor of the sump. You might even be able to just look up in there thru the plug hole.

What heads are you running? You might have a drainback issue, and restricted pushrods don't help much if the drainback is bad, have seen folks complain about that with earlier E-Heads.

A 30 psi drop is a lot. Which pickup are you using, the 15-451 or the 15-401? And which pan?

Could be as simple as an oil filter, or something with the lines or fittings (restriction). Could be a drainback issue. Lastly, it could be somehow the pickup fell off.


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[HWYSTR455]

Sorry, bottom brace may not be on that pickup.


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[Steve C.]

When I called Canton and asked about their statement "6 qt System Capacity" I was told it was 5 quarts for the pan itself and they allowed 1 quart for a oil filter. A total of 6 quarts.

https://www.cantonracingproducts.com...-race-pan.html


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[HWYSTR455]

Yeah, I think they just went by the book. I have had a pan off the car and started dumping in qt by qt, and 6 in the sump looked right to me. I have had others talk to me about in practice, and adding a qt always seemed to work better.

I've side by side compared to a Milodon road race pan, which is 7 qt (6 + 1), and they look the same to me in sump depth etc. The GTO Milodon is an 8 qt pan. (7 + 1)

But that's my personal experience.

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[Skip Fix]

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

Yeah, I think they just went by the book. I have had a pan off the car and started dumping in qt by qt, and 6 in the sump looked right to me. I have had others talk to me about in practice, and adding a qt always seemed to work better.

I've side by side compared to a Milodon road race pan, which is 7 qt (6 + 1), and they look the same to me in sump depth etc. The GTO Milodon is an 8 qt pan. (7 + 1)

But that's my personal experience.

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Factory "full" on the dipstick and a Canton just cover the top baffle/tray. You can drill the tray and still use a factory dipstick. But mine is about 6+1 also.

[Giffels]

Appreciate all the feedback thus far, try to answer everything here.

Yes I have calculated the additional filter + lines, came out to about 1.5 quarts so I am currently at 7.5 quarts in the total system and have tried over filling this to be approximate 8.5 total system and still had the issue. Was highly considering upping it to 9.5 quarts and going easy on it, seems the worst that would happen is puke it out the breathers if it is over full as long as I am not hammering on it.

I will have to do more research on the filter flowing enough, I honestly never even considered that and it is quite an interesting point. Currently have a filter housing that has the 3/4 thread so may have to investigate getting another housing for the 13/16 or a higher flowing filter.

Heads are #16 heads so don't think they have the same dreaded drawback issues. Running 15-450 Pan and 15-451 pickup

In terms of the higher capacity sump, seems like the hammer head style canton is about the only one I have seen and requires modifications to my long tube headers for clearance.

does anyone out there make a dry sump for these old Pontiacs that doesn't cost $5K? Seems like dry sump would be next logical step since the accusump to me seems kind of like a bandaid

[HWYSTR455]

Keep in mind that not all AN fittings are created the same, and many neck down drastically. That's especially true for what's considered 'adapters'. Many are 90 degrees, squared off, and certainly not 'full-flowing'.

For that reason, at one time when I was considering a remote filter setup, the recommended AN line and fitting size was -12. I typed that right.

There are some 'custom' solutions for dry sump, but, seriously doubt you will get under $5k.

There are some aftermarket oil pumps out there, you could increase psi & volume, it would probably help. The Titan pump is one, but have no idea what those cost anymore.

Can call BOP Engineering, believe they have made a few dry sump setups, but that certainly won't be under $5k.

I say an easy test would be to change to a different filter. If that doesn't work, add another qt, go to that 9.5 qt you calculated, see how that works.

If you still have issues, and you want to eliminate the cause potentially being the remote filter setup, go back to the OE filter housing, and don't disable the bypass.

EDIT: With large lines to the remote filter, volume becomes a concern as well.

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[Giffels]

Just for sh*ts and giggles I found a Wix 51515R filter here locally and changed the oil. The inspection camera was too big to fit in the drain hole (of course) - was able to get a flashlight and some fancy iPhone angles and pickup seems to be totally fine and right about 1/2" off the pan.

Filter and lines hold exactly 1 Quart.

Started out with 6 in the sump and then worked up to 7 in the sump + 1 in the filter. Can still recreate the issue on right hand corners even on the street. Also did some heavy breaking in neutral holding it at a steady RPM and you can see it drop in that regard too. Does seem to be slightly better than it was before but if you hold steady 3,000 RPM and go right hand corner I can see it drop 10-20 PSI vs. Left hand it does not drop. (Was concerned maybe I was seeing the RPM drop which would obviously drop the oil pressure accordingly so was trying to hold RPM and load steady to test)

Guess the next step is putting a plan together for a larger sump pan as you guys have suggested and yanking the motor. The T sump canton pan won't clear my headers so may be looking at a custom route I would think.

Really kind of disappointed this pan is marketed as "Road Race" and I can get it to starve in my neighborhood on 200 tread wear tires

[Giffels]

You guys could be onto something with the filter itself. Have the sheet for the pump (hopefully this attachment works). Should be spinning 1/2 speed of crank so at 5k rpm it’s pumping close to 20GPH so maybe the filter just can’t keep up?

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by Giffels

You guys could be onto something with the filter itself. Have the sheet for the pump (hopefully this attachment works). Should be spinning 1/2 speed of crank so at 5k rpm it’s pumping close to 20GPH so maybe the filter just can’t keep up?

I DO A FAT FINGER TYPO occasionally so , we all know you meant 20 GPM thru the filter.

Tom V.

[Giffels]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

I DO A FAT FINGER TYPO occasionally so , we all know you meant 20 GPM thru the filter.

Tom V.

I really should be better at typing on a phone by now. Good catch