[Verdoro 68]

True, .005 is not at lot here.

Regarding the oil rings: I know you usually don’t have to mess with them, but I want to double check the .008 gap I’m seeing with them is ok.

[25stevem]

The gaps are set wider on the second ring because that’s where most of the heat migrated to in the piston and as such that ring expands more.

[HWYSTR455]

The spec is .015, if it's tighter, may want to open them up. But, I've never had to open them up before, which makes me wonder if you got a set for a diff bore. Check.

They are made of a diff material than other rings, and are 'flimsy', so grinding them may be difficult. You may want to try stacking 2 or more on top of each other when you grind them, to help prevent them from flopping around.

Before you open them up, ask Butler would be my suggestion.

True on the 2nd ring, but, if you are already going to a step or two over the 'standard' gap, it's ok to make them the same as the top ring.


EDIT: You might be able to use vise grips with 2 popsicle sticks, put the oil ring in between the popsicle sticks and use a fine hand file. That might be easier than trying to grind them. You also might be able to stand them up on their' edge, and then use the grinder. Experiment.

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[Verdoro 68]

The set is explicitly for a 4.17 bore so they should be right. I took an oil ring out of the bore, gently flexed it up and down a little bit, then put it back in. The gap opened up to .015, so maybe they just need some slight persuasion. Doesn't feel good doing that, but they're pretty thin rings.

Just to confirm for the compression ring gap, I'm hearing .023 on the first and .025 on the second?

Interesting old post (#16) by mgarblik on ring gaps and how wider doesn't impact performance. HWYSTAR, you make an appearance in the thread too: https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...79#post5554779

[TedRamAirII]

What's the SNAFU on the Duplicolor DE1616 paint? have you tried it again?

[Verdoro 68]

Originally Posted by TedRamAirII

What's the SNAFU on the Duplicolor DE1616 paint? have you tried it again?

My memory was wrong, I snagged a box of 6 for $40 a while back. Haven't seen that deal since.

https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...45#post6180145

Figured I'd fit up the pistons and rods before circling back on the ring gap. The trick to the spirolox is to pull them apart, and push the spiral up and towards top of the piston when you put them in. Took me a little bit to figure that out. I also put my first two pistons on upside down (reversed 1 and 2), so I got good at removing them too. The rod vise was a pretty handy tool for this work.

Someone asked if this was zero decked earlier in the thread. I never gave Butler any measurements, so I was curious myself. I put a piston and rod in for mockup to see where things were at. Looks to be a smidge below the deck, but not substantial. My dial indicator setup was kind of finicky in this config, so I couldn't get a measurement I trusted.





Thought it also might be interesting to compare the old rod/piston assembly to the new one. I don't really know what I'm looking for, but they're pretty different. Way less material on the new pistons.

[HWYSTR455]

Ah, yeah, see where I posted, pretty much the same comments as I did on this thread. Guess my mind isn't as bad as I though it is! Heheh!

I say if you go to the 1st step or more above standard, you don't need to make the 2nd bigger, just make it the same. It's enough of a gap to prevent butting if it does see more heat.

So the block is .030 over? Since the rings are .020 over, that leaves an extra .010 for filing. And that explains why the oil rings are tight.

I thought they would box the file fit rings with the oil rings for the correct bore, and not leave additional for requiring to file them. Maybe that fact isn't correct, and my mem IS as bad I as thought! Heheh!

I have a small screw driver with a V cut into the tip, that I use to install spiral locks. I do the same with my thumb, open up the lock kind of in a spring fashion like you, then use the screw driver on the inside edge and follow it around to seat it. But really, whatever works for you is fine, as long as you don't stretch the lock out in a spring direction.

Technically, many don't do a 'true' zero deck, and shoot for .005-.007 (or more) in the hole. The tolerance allows for additional clearance in the even a rod bearing goes, expansion, or if the bore has a slight chamfer.

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[1_Wild_Cat]

Is that the 6.700” rod length?

[Verdoro 68]

6.8” rods

[1_Wild_Cat]

Thanks for the rod info.. I’ve been trying to decide on a rod choice for my upcoming 4” stroke build.

[Verdoro 68]

Everyone is out of stock of King Bearings. Summit is saying end of October, Butler doesn't have a date.

I have a few options:

1) Wait until the bearings come back into stock and put this build on hold.
2) Speed Pro 113M (no extra clearance available)
3) Try a combo of Sealed Power 4040M and 4040M1
4) Have the crank polished .001 to open up the clearance for the Clevite 743HNs that Butler sent

Not sure which direction to go. Do any of these bearings run on the larger side?

BTW, Butler aims for .018-.020 on ring gap.

[HWYSTR455]

I'm not a fan of mixing bearing shells, you never know if it's going to crush right. With that in mind, I would suggest having the crank polished.

Ring gaps are your call, tighter 'works', all I'm saying looser is safer.

You ask about the oil ring?

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[Verdoro 68]

I'm going to take your advice on the looser ring gaps. Better safe than sorry and there doesn't seem to be any performance impact. I forgot to ask about the oil ring, will drop them another email.

By mixing shells I assume you mean putting an extra clearance with a standard in the same journal? Going to avoid that if I can. As of right now, it's just the #5 journal that needs a different bearing and it's not because of the journal itself since the Clevites were uniformly all too tight. Polishing the crank to fit the Clevites is probably the right solution here.

[HWYSTR455]

Correct, mixing a top bearing shell with a bottom bearing shell not from the same set. I don't think that's a good idea, and would not be comfortable doing that.

There's a lot of science that goes into how a bearing crushes when torqued, and I'm not going to challenge that.


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[Verdoro 68]

After doing some reading, I'm going to give Speed Pro 113M bearings a shot. If those don't solve the clearance issue, I'll head over to the machine shop.

Although I said I wasn't going to change cams, you all have me considering changing cams. I don't want to be disappointed in the outcome of this build. Butler has the 236/242 .521/.540 in stock on a 112 or 114. Considering A/C and power brakes, would I be giving up any streetability with this cam? Is the 13" Continental stall enough for It?

[HWYSTR455]

If you go 114, I doubt you will give anything up, should be all gain, but somehow can't recall the exact specs of the cam you were going to use, just that I remember it was small.



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[Verdoro 68]

I currently have a 230/236 .510/.520 114 for the build.

[HWYSTR455]

Yeah, went back and looked, thanks.

As an example, I ran a 247/253 solid roller, was on a 113.5 LSA, in the 71 LeMans for years, A/C, power brakes, no issues with vacuum at all. You could probably go up one more step if you really wanted to, but it wil be more dependent on rear gears and stall.

I think you're good with that cam, 236/242 on a 114, it's a good compromise between the cams a step in either direction. Should also make it a little less sensitive to octane as well.


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[Verdoro 68]

That Ram Air IV roller is right in between the cam I have and the one I'm considering. I wonder what the power difference is between them?

Curious why your builder thinks the 236/242 would be too radical.

[napster]

Originally Posted by Verdoro 68

That Ram Air IV roller is right in between the cam I have and the one I'm considering. I wonder what the power difference is between them?

Curious why your builder thinks the 236/242 would be too radical.

If my memory is correct, he said it is the iron heads. With the other 461's they have the edelbrock E heads and run the 236/242/110 cam.