[Shift'n Gears]

Originally Posted by x-bird2

i posted the vin and the information he provided to me about the body being scrapped in 86 to the sd registry.

In one respect I am Glad you posted that info on the Registry, and in another respect I am rather shocked that everyone, not only the owner, can post about a VIN. What if someone had a grudge against someone else and started posting bogus info about a car??? Currently I am not an SD owner but I am looking at A 74SD 4sp shortly that is not in the registry. If I do get the car I am real hesitant now to add the car. Is there any regulation on the registry at all?

[Super Duty D]

I have not added mine to the list for general privacy concerns as well.
It's a nice idea to build a list like this, but then again, it opens a can of worms for the not so concerned people in this hobby to take advantage of this "free" information.

If regulated/controlled/secured properly, it would be a asset to more than us owners in a few ways;

Insurance verification on Vin #,s and options.
SD History on a VIN's and options if you go to look at a car.
Feeling safe about sharing this kind of information.
How many still are out there in any condition "good" or "needs help" to "trailer queen"

I'm sure everyone could add to this list.

This should have been a new thread on a page called SD Talk..........., here at PY, of course.

But I guess everyone needs 44 pages of information to search once in a while, when looking for a post

[Shift'n Gears]

Originally Posted by Super Duty D

If regulated/controlled/secured properly, it would be a asset to more than us owners in a few ways;

Yes it is an excellent resource and I use it frequently for refernece, but like you said Super Duty D - the key is keeping the info secure.

44 pages to search. That's nothing. Wait till it hits 144 pages and you want to find something from 3 months ago

[toomanybirds]

I don't want to start an argument, and I certainly don't mean to offend anyone, but I have to ask what is meant by "secure" and "privacy" with regard to a VIN for a car?

The VIN is sometimes referred to as a "Public VIN" because it is a public record of a registered automobile. It is true that many states have closed or limited access to vehicle registration, to protect the privacy and security of the owners, not to protect the identity of the car.

I don't understand why anyone would feel they need to protect or hide the VIN of a car? I can't imagine any real risk from a VIN being publicized.

I have heard said that a valuable car might be "cloned" if the VIN were publicized. This makes no sense to me. If I was in the "cloning" business, the last thing I would do is clone a car that is known to exist. On the other hand, if I knew a VIN of a car that was scrapped and no longer exists, it could be "cloned." Again, if a car is known to exist, no sane person is going to try to copy it and pass it off as an original.

I too, spoke with the owner of the blue 73 Formula SD car. I had no interest in buying the tags from a scrapped car. I called hoping the car still existed and was available. I am pleased that the VIN of this car was posted here and on the registry. Hopefully, if the car is "cloned," any prospective buyers will find the info on the registry and not be deceived.

I have a collection of cars including SD-455 TA's and Formula's. I have no problem publicizing the VIN's. They are included in the registry. I think it is an asset to the other owners to have registry information available. It seems a bit selfish for an owner to use the registry, but not include the info from their car.

Here are some VIN's from my cars:

2V87X3N144677 73 Buccaneer red TA, black custom int, 4 speed
2U87X3N136465 73 Brewster green Formula, saddle deluxe int, automatic
2U87X3N143805 73 Florentine red Formula, oxblood deluxe int, automatic (sold this one last year)
2U87X4N121481 74 White Formula, blue deluxe int, automatic (probably will sell this one)
2V87X4N167178 74 Buccaneer red TA, white deluxe int, automatic

I will sleep comfortably tonight and in the future. I don't feel any lack of privacy or security from publicizing these VIN's from my cars.

Please understand, I mean to offend no one by this post. Some of the owners here are known to me personally, and I consider them my friends. I respect their privilege to not disclose their VIN information, I just don't share their concern.

With regard to false information being posted maliciously on the registry, I suppose it could happen. I am not sure about the internet registry, but I know Frank Gatarz carefully manages the info on the registry he maintains. I trust that a responsible manager of any registry would remove information found to be false.

[x-bird2]

while it has been submitted, it may be a long time before it actually is added to the registry database. or it may not. however, given that the car body no longer exists and thus technically the car itself no longer does either, in one sense, wherever it was scrapped at or disposed of is or should have been the actual owner of that vin. i agree with toomanybirds on VINS. However, i will say that there are a couple famous examples of morons that built an exact duplicate of an existing vehicle, right down to the VIN. I know of a gt-350 and a gt-40 where owners of two vehicles of each type got in "authenticity" battles and protracted lawsuits to settle the mess. Frank also I believe does have the VINs of all the SDs. just as the shelby registry has the all the Ford vins to the shelby cars--those i understand why they DON'T publish, as they are the absolute proof to verify that it's the real deal. And they have published the Shelby VIN and known history of every single one built. Cool book to read, expensive and sitting 3 feet behind me on a shelf. in this instance i did what i did just to provide information as to the status of the car to protect anybody from falling victim to a rebody. My car has been listed in the registry since around 98 or 99, i think as owners it's a good tool for documentation, with it we can see the timeline of the production run and where are cars fall within the "batch" and can find out just how unique each one is. There are about 1/2 dozen vins i have considered adding to teh registry, however, they are good running examples and in each case i informed the owner of it's existence and let them make the decision to forward the info. in this case, i feel a bit differently about who actually should be in possesion of that VIN. BTW, if you watch SDs for sale closely and stated mileage, then check the various iterations of the registry, (older newsletter copies and the site) you'll see at least two in the last 2 years that have an amazing ability to decrease their mileage over the years.

[toomanybirds]

X-bird, thanks for your comments. You make some good points. I agree that publishing complete VIN lists of rare cars is not a good idea. It could possibly help those faking or cloning cars.

I would be curious to know if the two cloned cars you mentioned, the GT350 and GT40, were listed on a registry prior to being cloned? I doubt it, as it would be foolish to clone a car known to exist. More likely, a registry caused the discovery of the cloned cars after they were cloned. Again, my point is that listing the VIN of your car on a registry actually makes it safer from any risk of cloning. I also strongly support the publishing of VIN's of cars that have been scrapped.

[Firebird 2]

My 2 cents. VIN numbers are out there for everyone to see, internet and even car shows so we can't hide them. What collectors must do to protect themselfs is keep their license plates current. After a few years (not sure the act time) each state purges their system of unregistered cars freeing up the data base. If that rare car isn't driven, can't be driven or in the resto process plate it to protect yourself because all that dishonest person has to do is get the VIN he wants, reproduce the tag and take it to the local police dept for verification. Next step is the Sec of State and he plates it and he is off and running.

[Brewster]

Many good points noted above !
I have my cars listed and feel proud and safe that there is documentation of there mileage/options along the years. I have used the registry myself for checking on cars that where possible buyers and it has helped secure my interest in the process.

There are allot of people out there that do weird things and I think getting the information at a car show (like John noted above) is more likely then anything else?

[x-bird2]

in the case of the gt-350, the original ford vin is under the fender on the unit-body. shelby tags are relatively easy to replicate. finding out the original ford vin linked to a shelby vin isn't. when the owner of the real shelby presented his case, all he had to do was contact the registry, which provided verification by releasing the ford vin to the proper authorities. the gt-40 was a "recreation" of a known wrecked car. however, very few of the gt40 tubs were ever scrapped. over time the original was restored. when the fake went to auction, the owner's of the real car came forward. tub construction methods on the fake which differed just a little bit proved it to be what it was. i really think that within the 70-73 forum should be a sticky for posting known scrapped SDs, H.O.s Ram Air IVs etc and "loose" engine vins currently on the market. it is getting to be a real pain to dig through these pages to find past posts on particular items.

[Larry Navarro]

The one thing we have in our favor is Pontiac Historical Services. That pretty much eliminates the issues of why the Shelby guys don't publish VIN's.

[toomanybirds]

Again, I think that anyone concerned that their car might be cloned is best protected by having the VIN available for all to see. Only a fool or a moron would attempt to duplicate a car that is already known to exist.

Protecting your VIN at a car show?? Why?? If there are cloners out there looking for VIN's to clone, wouldn't having your VIN visible at a car show provide the best protection of all? As the cloners look around, they see your car exists, they write down the VIN and put it in their file called "VIN's not to clone." Now you are safer from cloning than before.

Yes, I know what I just wrote doesn't happen. But I am trying to make the point that there is no logical reason to hide your car's VIN. Actually, there is good logic to openly displaying your VIN for all to see.

The GT40 story above is a good example. The car was recreated by someone who believed the original car no longer existed. When the owner of the original car came forward, his was proven to be authentic. If the owner of the original car had publicized that he owned it along with the VIN in a registry, it would never have been recreated. He could have avoided the time, trouble and expense of proving his was the original car.

Do you get my point? Am I overstating the obvious? It just rubs me the wrong way when I see car owners consumed by what I would call "VIN paranoia."

One more example. Because of the registry, I was able to re-unite a car with it's original SD-455 block. The owner listed his VIN in the registry, I noticed that it matched a block I had purchased with a car project years before. I made contact with the owner, he was very happy to get the original block for his car. This would never have happened if he had "protected" his VIN, and not listed his car in the registry.

Anyone disagree? Anyone have a good reason for hiding the VIN at a car show, or not listing your car in a registry? Or not listing the VIN when you advertise a car for sale on the internet? If there is a good reason, I would like to hear it.

[x-bird2]

nail on the head.

[keith k]

Originally Posted by toomanybirds

Again, I think that anyone concerned that their car might be cloned is best protected by having the VIN available for all to see. Only a fool or a moron would attempt to duplicate a car that is already known to exist.

Protecting your VIN at a car show?? Why?? If there are cloners out there looking for VIN's to clone, wouldn't having your VIN visible at a car show provide the best protection of all? As the cloners look around, they see your car exists, they write down the VIN and put it in their file called "VIN's not to clone." Now you are safer from cloning than before.

Yes, I know what I just wrote doesn't happen. But I am trying to make the point that there is no logical reason to hide your car's VIN. Actually, there is good logic to openly displaying your VIN for all to see.

The GT40 story above is a good example. The car was recreated by someone who believed the original car no longer existed. When the owner of the original car came forward, his was proven to be authentic. If the owner of the original car had publicized that he owned it along with the VIN in a registry, it would never have been recreated. He could have avoided the time, trouble and expense of proving his was the original car.

Do you get my point? Am I overstating the obvious? It just rubs me the wrong way when I see car owners consumed by what I would call "VIN paranoia."

One more example. Because of the registry, I was able to re-unite a car with it's original SD-455 block. The owner listed his VIN in the registry, I noticed that it matched a block I had purchased with a car project years before. I made contact with the owner, he was very happy to get the original block for his car. This would never have happened if he had "protected" his VIN, and not listed his car in the registry.

Anyone disagree? Anyone have a good reason for hiding the VIN at a car show, or not listing your car in a registry? Or not listing the VIN when you advertise a car for sale on the internet? If there is a good reason, I would like to hear it.

I hadn't given it that much thought before (but am one who doesn't typically post VINs when I advertise a car...). You make very valid points.

[Firebird 2]

Please all remember, typically thieves are morons that is why they do what they do. Is it for their crack habit or their 3rd wife's alimony, who cares as they are thieves with no brains. Show your VIN, keep it plated and document the hell out of it.

[Super Duty D]

Well I guess it is about time I respond to all the comments I seem to have perpetuated.

First of all I stated my opinion of keeping my VIN private, as in not adding it to any public INTERNET forum. I do not hide my VIN at car shows, ya need to see the X!

I do however, try to keep my private and personal information protected and secure as reasonably as possible.

Perhaps I am a victim of conditioned reflex; the invisible thief's;

Identity theft
Credit Cards #'s
Banking account / routing # info
SS #'s
Divers license #'s
Ect.

Why not a VIN on a rare Kickbut car then?

Like Pavlov's dogs, I guess I have become conditioned to only give information that he or she needs to complete the task at hand when dealing with my personal information.

Now then, there has been a lot of excellent points made here like;
keeping your license tags current
building a history of documentation on your car.
Having a list of all X cars known (SD Reg)
Listing a dissolved VIN car on the SD Registry. (If it's gone, it should be noted as such, I agree with that.)
PHS Backing keeps more people honest.
Car VIN # thieves are too smart to hock a SD VIN #

Others??


Perhaps the safety, security, and privacy issues I am concerned with are unfounded.

I just figured if it's not on the list, don't add it. No one needs to know about it.

It was just my opinion,

SDD

[Norwood]

SDD, I'm not making light of keeping personal info as confidential as possible, you can never be to careful. But I have in my possession one of your checks. Me and everyone that you have ever written a check to has seen your account # as well as your banks routing #. Many people also put their drivers licence# , Ph.# and of course their address on their checks.

[Super Duty D]

Originally Posted by Norwood

SDD, I'm not making light of keeping personal info as confidential as possible, you can never be to careful. But I have in my possession one of your checks. Me and everyone that you have ever written a check to has seen your account # as well as your banks routing #. Many people also put their drivers license# , Ph.# and of course their address on their checks.

The difference here is that I know you. You are who you say you are;
Norwood; An honest person, I am not worried about you. You are a stand up guy.
Lot's of great people here on PY. There is a wealth of info to be had here and I trust
a lot of people here.

Risk management is all I am saying for INTERNET info.

SDD

[toomanybirds]

SDD,

I totally respect your choice to not list your car on a registry. You have that choice and no one should question why. I hope my statements did not offend you.

As you state, we have good reason to protect our Social Security numbers and our credit card numbers as these are easily abused by criminals and identity thieves. I think for some people, the concern for protecting those numbers is carried over to their collector car VIN without stopping to think about why.

I am very protective of my personal information. When I am asked for personal information and I am not sure why the requester needs it, I always ask them to tell me why they need it before I will provide the information. If they can't state a valid reason, I don't give the information.

My intent with my posts was to point out that we really have nothing to fear from publicizing our VIN's and maybe even gain some security from it.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

**Caution** Big Rant below:

I agree that thieves are morons and are out to steal what is not theirs. They are usually careless and continue until they are caught. The cloners, re-creators, re-taggers, re-bodiers and even the re-stampers aren't actually thieves in that they don't directly steal from you. They are opportunists that see this activity as a way to get something for nothing. Their intent is to deceive by making a car appear to be something it is not. They are motivated by greed and they feel superior if they can pass off their fake as authentic, especially if they can fool the "experts." If they are successful, they are rewarded with financial gain. They will commonly boast about their deed and will try to justify and rationalize it with a variety of explanations. "I saved this car" or "This rebodied car is better than a car welded together with patch panels" and many more. This subject has been worn out on this board before, and I am sure I will not change any one's opinion, as I will not change mine.

Rant over.

So display those VIN's with pride, and if I see your car at a car show with the VIN covered, I hope you won't mind me asking why.

[Brewster]

Hhmmmm, I never really thought about it but I always assumed that all us SD owners had there cars in the registry?

Personally, I think it a must but thats my opinion.

[johnta1]

You don't have to send any personal info when you register your SD at the registry.

I'm with Brewster, I think all the SD Birds should be there.