[The Champ]

Styling is subjective, and what one person likes another may not.

All I know is that since the "retro" Mustang and Challenger were introduced, the Challenger has never sold enough to be significant and Mustang sales are down almost 100,000 units per year compared to the 2001 Mustang (when it had to compete with both the Firebird and the Camaro for sales).

Mustang sales in 2001 (4th gen no power Mustangs) were 169,168 compared to 2011 (5th gen "retro" improved power Mustangs).

Challenger sales have never topped 40,000 since it's introduction in 2009.

Meanwhile, the best selling Pony Car on the planet is the Camaro with ever increasing sales numbers - 2011 sales of 88,249.

Most people buy cars for one of three reasons:

1. The cars are cheap.

2. They like the looks.

3. They like the performance.

The Camaro is not the cheapest of the current Pony Cars, so it must be the other two reasons...

[sleepy]

In 2001 people were replacing their daily driver every couple to few years. 2011 they are hanging on to those cars YEARS longer. If GM charged what they had too to pay back the money they stole in a reasonable amount of time NOBODY would buy a crapmarro.(like the volt) and even if the currant sales numbers stay the same between the crudmarro and the ratstang GM will need about 100 years to catch up with the retro stang.

[The Champ]

The Camaro has been outselling the Mustang nearly every month since it's introduction. You and the haters can bash it all you want, but that just means that you are in the minority (as usual).

As to the Volt (you brought it up), it was the best selling electric plug in vehicle in the United States again last month. Unlike Ford's Focus Electric that has sold a total of 16 cars since it's introduction in December.

The Detroit giant confirmed for the first time this week that it has sold just 16 Focus Electric models in the US since production began in December...

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/autos/for...#ixzz1xfUtoRYY

Chevy sold 326 Volts in December of 2010. If the current pace (32 cars per year) continues - it would take Ford 10 years to equal the Volts first month of production...

May and YTD 2012 sales of Electric Plugin vehicles:

Chevrolet Volt 1,680 up 14.9% YTD 7,057 up 223.1%

Prius PHV 1,086 down -34.3% YTD 3,638 n/a

Nissan LEAF 510 up 37.8% YTD 2,613 up 20.6%

BMW Active E 11 down -63.3% YTD 594 n/a

Mitsubishi i 85 up 7.6% YTD 300 n/a

Ford Focus Electric 6 n/a YTD 8 n/a

[sleepy]

GM is the only company who doesn't have to pay off what they stole. Chrysler is making their payments. Ford is paying their(private NOT government)loans. But GM doesn't have to add to the cost of the car paying back the billions the were given and stole.

[Mr_GTO]

Originally Posted by sleepy

GM is the only company who doesn't have to pay off what they stole. Chrysler is making their payments. Ford is paying their(private NOT government)loans. But GM doesn't have to add to the cost of the car paying back the billions the were given and stole.

I thought this was a discussion about the ZL1 and the GT500?

[1966goat]

So anyway, my brother in law brought home a new ZL1 last night. He brought it over, the car is mean and angry looking and sounding. I'll take pics when I see it next. On the streets its a lot of fun to play with the G meter.

[The Champ]

I see that as usual, sleepy is once again trying to change the subject that he started when the truth bites him in the assets.

I won't continue to embarrass him by pointing out his continuing errors and mistatements...

'66goat - Congratulations to your brother for having the intelligence to purchase the best of the best available to the consumer in the current Pony Car wars...

[sleepy]

errors and mistatements.
GM paid back with interest ALL of the money.
230 mpg
Volt outsells the prius.
GM is NOT run by the government(even though ofrauda fired the CEO and replaced him with his own guy)
GM DIDN'T steal investers money by having the government blackmale them at gunpoint.

[The Champ]

sleepy

Instead of blathering more of your bs, why not post on topic?

[sleepy]

On topic, The ZL1 should never have gone into production because GM should not be here.

[bigunde]

Originally Posted by sleepy

On topic, The ZL1 should never have gone into production because GM should not be here.

Then based on what you are saying Chrysler shouldnt be here either ????? Thats alot of automotive jobs(including vendors) that would be at the soup line right now. I agree the "new GM" should pay ALL of the cash back.

[sleepy]

Originally Posted by bigunde

Then based on what you are saying Chrysler shouldnt be here either ????? Thats alot of automotive jobs(including vendors) that would be at the soup line right now. I agree the "new GM" should pay ALL of the cash back.

Big differance. Chrysler got loans which they paid back. They didn't have the government take over the company or hand a big chunk over to the UAW while leaving the investers with nothing.
And champ, Fords "start up" companies may have failed twice a hundred years ago but he filed bankrupcy (like every other company) and started over(like every other buisness). THE FORD MOTOR COMPANY has(since IT came to be) has NEVER filed bankrupcy.
NEVER had the president fire their CEO and replace him with a government picked man.
NEVER had the government steal at gunpoint the investers money.
NEVER turned over a big chunk of the company to the UAW.
NEVER handed over ownership to the government.
and NEVER made a car just because the government said you must make and sell this car to the public.

[bigunde]

Originally Posted by sleepy

Big differance. Chrysler got loans which they paid back. They didn't have the government take over the company or hand a big chunk over to the UAW while leaving the investers with nothing.
And champ, Fords "start up" companies may have failed twice a hundred years ago but he filed bankrupcy (like every other company) and started over(like every other buisness). THE FORD MOTOR COMPANY has(since IT came to be) has NEVER filed bankrupcy.
NEVER had the president fire their CEO and replace him with a government picked man.
NEVER had the government steal at gunpoint the investers money.
NEVER turned over a big chunk of the company to the UAW.
NEVER handed over ownership to the government.
and NEVER made a car just because the government said you must make and sell this car to the public.

You said GM should have been let go BACK THEN. Ill ask again, what about Chrysler BACK THEN. We had NO way to know about payback.

[sleepy]

Originally Posted by bigunde

You said GM should have been let go BACK THEN. Ill ask again, what about Chrysler BACK THEN. We had NO way to know about payback.

Yes. they should have had to go thru bankruptcy JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE. Not this modified for the UAW to not lose anything crap.
The UAW bailout was political support payback, If any car company wasn't using union labor the government wouldn't have given them a dime, They woould have said the company wasn't run well and deserved to go under.

[The Champ]

Originally Posted by sleepy

On topic, The ZL1 should never have gone into production because GM should not be here.

Henry Ford's first two automobile companies went bankrupt. Using your logic, there should be no Ford Mustang, because Henry Ford should not have been allowed to start a third automobile company.

Chrysler also went through the process twice.

GM - only one time.

As usual, your own logic bites you in the asset...

BTW, sleepy, the folks in the suite at Cedar Lake Speedway are still waiting for you to bring them their hot dogs. The only job you're qualified to hold at a race track...

[bigunde]

[QUOTE=sleepy;4655601]On topic, The ZL1 should never have gone into production because GM should not be here.[/QUOTE]
Your statement. Not a BIG difference as you stated. And again I believe ALL debts should be paid back. So with that, should Chrysler have been shelved too?

[F ROCK]

supercars. i'll never own one so it doesnt matter to me.



how many of these "super" versions get sold?

i know nothing about the sales numbers of either of these models but i see ALOT of these retro mustangs. Camaro's too.
I like 'em both.

[MikeNoun]

Very interesting read from Motor Trend, pitting the ZL1 vs. the Shelby GT500. Motor Trend compares them at the dragstrip, on a road course, and most importantly, since 99% of these cars will never see a race track, they report on how they behave on the street.

Definitely worth reading the entire article, not just the spec sheets.

http://autos.yahoo.com/news/2012-che...0-.html?page=1

Both fantastic cars!

[The Boss]

Personally, I like a world where there are multiple big car companies. Even though I drive & love my Ford truck, I wouldn't be happy if they were the only game in town.

[Mr_GTO]

http://www.insideline.com/chevrolet/...ison-test.html

Mustang smokes in the 1/4......Camaro smokes it everywhere else.