[LiL Jack]

Has any CV1 motor in the universe made 1K HP yet?

[mysticmissle]

I heard there was one in Uranus

[Jeff Kinsler]

Originally Posted by mysticmissle

I heard there was one in Uranus

NOW THAT IS FUNNY!!!!!!!

[bruce driggers]

Originally Posted by mysticmissle

I heard there was one in Uranus

Mystic , you mis-understood , they said Lil gack had his head up some ones Uranus , lol

[Vengeance Race Engines]

Bill-
You are welcome, and I am sure he will be happy. Regardless of what the cfm numbers were, it is the before and after comparison. Redesigning that port, while adding volume for the application will make the difference. It is the same reason why wideporting the E-heads makes such a big difference. Taking advantage of the higher runner entrance with the Tiger which is more suited for the valve angle Pontiac has, then doing what you did going taller and much wider, removing that pinch at the pushrod is key. Same should hold true for even the Pro Ports or any siamese runner design. Personally, I like the CV design on paper and I don't see why they won't make the power. I like what you guys have been doing with them, especially on the Exhaust side of it. Budget restraints won't allow us to go with them for the stuff we have in the shop now, but in the future it looks like we will so I am hoping it works out.
You know me, I don't get involved with the "head" games, no pun intended but I don't feel Jack, or the other guys for that matter, are meaning anything bad by the comments. I think it is more than anything. I have spoken to Jack on the phone, and to be honest, when the heads games were brought up in conversation quick, he did not have one bad thing to say about anyone or any head. Take that for what it is worth..Hell, even I am curious to what the CV design will do maxxed out and I am waiting for the chance for someone to step up and want to see as well..as a builder I am completely confident we have the ability to find out that is for sure..Keep up the good work. I think Jim has some good guys putting forth a tremendous effort to get them where they need to be.

John-
I don't think there are any angles, so to speak. I just think that since Calvin and Bill are the only ones putting in the effort to see what the CV design can achieve, that they are at the mercy of the customer, like Bruce said. Hell, if I was able to bill the shop and chalk it up as a business expense to build different combinations for testing purposes to show what a part can do for different applications, I would also lol..And it wouldn't be just Pontiac..being in business I am sure you would agree, as builders we would all love to have an RnD dept to do the same to test out all our ideas. But I will agree, Bill does take a little of this stuff maybe too personally sometimes, sorry Bill,lol, but I, or maybe even you would to if you felt it was an attack against your hard work. From what I understand you do amazing work with sheet intakes and seem to know a thing or two about porting and I can't imagine how things would get if you felt the same as he or any of us did about criticizing our workmanship.....

Jack-
Judging by your car (love it BTW), i wouldn't say either one was correct, stupid OR bias. Going by how you car runs, you, like many, are just tired of the talk and want to see results like anyone would with an untested product..I would think that if a part came out that you felt would give you an advantage, you would be more than willing to pay the money and make the swap. Being bias would just mean you wouldn't be interested no matter how much faster your car would be with said part. And if it is based off of personal issues with Bill, which is nobodies business anyway, who says you have to have Bill do them?

Bruce-
I am sure it is not an all out build. He is doing what the customer can afford, and is interested in doing, which is what we all have to do. I don't think you would need to have to explain the situation, it is what it is. Power from a given combination. Bill does nice work. I have been telling people for years, just because builders are limited to what the customer's budget is, doesn't mean we can't make more power. Not everyone can afford maxxed out combinations. I wouldn't look at it like that is the only kind of power that we can build or that is the only kind of power those heads can make, but look at the entire combination and let the car tell the story when it goes down the track. No need for "shoulda woulda couldas" really. Intelligent people will know if the power made with anything is impressive if they look at it as a combination and not just cubic inch. I for one know how people can be as far as criticism goes, trust me, so just let the work and results speak for the builder, looking at the whole package and not just at a particular part, and don't post results until you know that every effort was made to achieve that result. Forget the "IF" it had more gear or "IF" the converter was right or "IF" he had more cam or "IF" it had CV heads instead of Tigers...I look at it like this. IF the customer is happy, and you met or exceeded his goals for the money spent, that's all that matters.

Sorry for the novel guys, just wanted to respond to everyone while maintaining a level of a respect to those I responded to rather than make a half dozen posts..normally I try to keep it short and sweet

[twinturrbo406]

Originally Posted by Jeff Kinsler

a 572 with canted valve heads minimal should make what langer's motor is making.. this is a max effort just like langer's so this will be a good comparison between the tiger 480 cfm head and cv1 490 to 500 cfm head..

... now Jeff, i told you my engine wont have 490-500cfm heads on it, remember ?? ...
... but the just like Langer's part ? um, no ... my valves are in the standard CV-1 location, and so are my cylinder-bores ...

[twinturrbo406]

Originally Posted by LiL Jack

Has any CV1 motor in the universe made 1K HP yet?

... not that i am aware of ...

[twinturrbo406]

Originally Posted by Vengeance Race Engines

Bill-
You are welcome, and I am sure he will be happy. Regardless of what the cfm numbers were, it is the before and after comparison. Redesigning that port, while adding volume for the application will make the difference. It is the same reason why wideporting the E-heads makes such a big difference. Taking advantage of the higher runner entrance with the Tiger which is more suited for the valve angle Pontiac has, then doing what you did going taller and much wider, removing that pinch at the pushrod is key. Same should hold true for even the Pro Ports or any siamese runner design. Personally, I like the CV design on paper and I don't see why they won't make the power. I like what you guys have been doing with them, especially on the Exhaust side of it. Budget restraints won't allow us to go with them for the stuff we have in the shop now, but in the future it looks like we will so I am hoping it works out.
You know me, I don't get involved with the "head" games, no pun intended but I don't feel Jack, or the other guys for that matter, are meaning anything bad by the comments. I think it is more than anything. I have spoken to Jack on the phone, and to be honest, when the heads games were brought up in conversation quick, he did not have one bad thing to say about anyone or any head. Take that for what it is worth..Hell, even I am curious to what the CV design will do maxxed out and I am waiting for the chance for someone to step up and want to see as well..as a builder I am completely confident we have the ability to find out that is for sure..Keep up the good work. I think Jim has some good guys putting forth a tremendous effort to get them where they need to be.

John-
I don't think there are any angles, so to speak. I just think that since Calvin and Bill are the only ones putting in the effort to see what the CV design can achieve, that they are at the mercy of the customer, like Bruce said. Hell, if I was able to bill the shop and chalk it up as a business expense to build different combinations for testing purposes to show what a part can do for different applications, I would also lol..And it wouldn't be just Pontiac..being in business I am sure you would agree, as builders we would all love to have an RnD dept to do the same to test out all our ideas. But I will agree, Bill does take a little of this stuff maybe too personally sometimes, sorry Bill,lol, but I, or maybe even you would to if you felt it was an attack against your hard work. From what I understand you do amazing work with sheet intakes and seem to know a thing or two about porting and I can't imagine how things would get if you felt the same as he or any of us did about criticizing our workmanship.....

Jack-
Judging by your car (love it BTW), i wouldn't say either one was correct, stupid OR bias. Going by how you car runs, you, like many, are just tired of the talk and want to see results like anyone would with an untested product..I would think that if a part came out that you felt would give you an advantage, you would be more than willing to pay the money and make the swap. Being bias would just mean you wouldn't be interested no matter how much faster your car would be with said part. And if it is based off of personal issues with Bill, which is nobodies business anyway, who says you have to have Bill do them?

Bruce-
I am sure it is not an all out build. He is doing what the customer can afford, and is interested in doing, which is what we all have to do. I don't think you would need to have to explain the situation, it is what it is. Power from a given combination. Bill does nice work. I have been telling people for years, just because builders are limited to what the customer's budget is, doesn't mean we can't make more power. Not everyone can afford maxxed out combinations. I wouldn't look at it like that is the only kind of power that we can build or that is the only kind of power those heads can make, but look at the entire combination and let the car tell the story when it goes down the track. No need for "shoulda woulda couldas" really. Intelligent people will know if the power made with anything is impressive if they look at it as a combination and not just cubic inch. I for one know how people can be as far as criticism goes, trust me, so just let the work and results speak for the builder, looking at the whole package and not just at a particular part, and don't post results until you know that every effort was made to achieve that result. Forget the "IF" it had more gear or "IF" the converter was right or "IF" he had more cam or "IF" it had CV heads instead of Tigers...I look at it like this. IF the customer is happy, and you met or exceeded his goals for the money spent, that's all that matters.

Sorry for the novel guys, just wanted to respond to everyone while maintaining a level of a respect to those I responded to rather than make a half dozen posts..normally I try to keep it short and sweet

... well, i hear what you are saying Joe, pretty good post but i disagree with me taking it too seriously, or personally ...
... with the increases in power this engine has seen (without me being able to change any of the components, except the pistons, which resulted in less compression by the way) ... for Jack to make the comment " Show me some HP" afterwards, with everything considered here, how exactly is one to take that ?? ...
... like a joke ?? ... i'm sorry, but i seriously doubt you'll find someone that took that comment as a joke ... IMO ...

... to think 150+ hp increase, at the same RPM, while using the same components is not a good job, or impressive at all ?? = (STUPID)
... to be in a Tiger engine thread telling everyone the CV-1 heads dont make power ?? = (BIAS)

[Jeff Kinsler]

Originally Posted by twinturrbo406

... now Jeff, i told you my engine wont have 490-500cfm heads on it, remember ?? ...

i was liquored....so what port out of the ten is it going to have??


signed,
your new BFF!

[twinturrbo406]

Originally Posted by Jeff Kinsler

i was liquored....so what port out of the ten is it going to have??


signed,
your new BFF!

... lol, there are more than 10 Jeff, i told you that too, man you gotta lay off da' beerz !!! ...

[Vengeance Race Engines]

Originally Posted by twinturrbo406

... well, i hear what you are saying Joe, pretty good post but i disagree with me taking it too seriously, or personally ...
... with the increases in power this engine has seen (without me being able to change any of the components, except the pistons, which resulted in less compression by the way) ... for Jack to make the comment " Show me some HP" afterwards, with everything considered here, how exactly is one to take that ?? ...
... like a joke ?? ... i'm sorry, but i seriously doubt you'll find someone that took that comment as a joke ... IMO ...

... to think 150+ hp increase, at the same RPM, while using the same components is not a good job, or impressive at all ?? = (STUPID)
... to be in a Tiger engine thread telling everyone the CV-1 heads dont make power ?? = (BIAS)

Understood Bill. In any case, yes, picking up ANY power in any given combination with one change is ALWAYS good. Especially keeping existing parts, when normally you would need to change more than one to take full advantage. That just tells you it was definitely lacking in that department to begin with, regardless if it was making good power to start with. Just keeps proving my theory with these Pontiacs when it comes to Volume and a correctly designed runner over big cfm numbers and small ports. Efficient small ports have a home, and they are not on high rpm or big inch (or both for that matter) race engines. Making that much more power while dropping some compression is no surprise. Like I mentioned before, one needs to consider the entire combination when results are posted, not just inches to deem impressive. Kind of like knowing what a car has, and it not running the e/t or mph it should based solely on dyno or flow numbers..Good job, nicely done.

[BruceWilkie]

Originally Posted by LiL Jack

I would have thought a Tiger headed motor would have made more then that, thats all.

Jack prior to the head work this motor only made 824 HP. Wasnt built or ported by Bill or Calvin originally... Did you notice that no one mentioned who built it that way or the customers name? Nobody needs to be criticized. It was what it was and its changed considerably for the better.

They redid the heads... had to change pistons (I'm sure for good reason) which slightly lowered compression and picked up over 150 hp and over 50 ft lbs over the same basic rpm band... no small feat considering same everything else! I'm sure there is more power to be found if the customer decides to go for it.

Instead of being critical why dont we find out more details about what the combo was before Bill ported it?
You seem to be assuming things about this build that havent been told.
You shouldnt be shocked to find out that Tigers dont automatically equal Langer power.

And fwiw, I dont recall any of us criticizing your NA power or your head porters work on your combo.

[slowbird]

Congrats to all involved, 975hp and 770tq (assuming that is what it is based on the posts that have been made) is good power. The customer should be very happy with the added power.

[twinturrbo406]

Originally Posted by slowbird

Congrats to all involved, 975hp and 770tq (assuming that is what it is based on the posts that have been made) is good power. The customer should be very happy with the added power.

... thank you Brian, but the engine made more torque then that, i was being a little reserved on the 50+ lbs/ft, as we hope to get a new carb soon, and i would like to see another 10-15lbs avg. myself ... but we'll see ... maybe i'm wrong ...

[john marcella]

Originally Posted by Vengeance Race Engines

Bill-
You are welcome, and I am sure he will be happy. Regardless of what the cfm numbers were, it is the before and after comparison. Redesigning that port, while adding volume for the application will make the difference. It is the same reason why wideporting the E-heads makes such a big difference. Taking advantage of the higher runner entrance with the Tiger which is more suited for the valve angle Pontiac has, then doing what you did going taller and much wider, removing that pinch at the pushrod is key. Same should hold true for even the Pro Ports or any siamese runner design. Personally, I like the CV design on paper and I don't see why they won't make the power. I like what you guys have been doing with them, especially on the Exhaust side of it. Budget restraints won't allow us to go with them for the stuff we have in the shop now, but in the future it looks like we will so I am hoping it works out.
You know me, I don't get involved with the "head" games, no pun intended but I don't feel Jack, or the other guys for that matter, are meaning anything bad by the comments. I think it is more than anything. I have spoken to Jack on the phone, and to be honest, when the heads games were brought up in conversation quick, he did not have one bad thing to say about anyone or any head. Take that for what it is worth..Hell, even I am curious to what the CV design will do maxxed out and I am waiting for the chance for someone to step up and want to see as well..as a builder I am completely confident we have the ability to find out that is for sure..Keep up the good work. I think Jim has some good guys putting forth a tremendous effort to get them where they need to be.

John-
I don't think there are any angles, so to speak. I just think that since Calvin and Bill are the only ones putting in the effort to see what the CV design can achieve, that they are at the mercy of the customer, like Bruce said. Hell, if I was able to bill the shop and chalk it up as a business expense to build different combinations for testing purposes to show what a part can do for different applications, I would also lol..And it wouldn't be just Pontiac..being in business I am sure you would agree, as builders we would all love to have an RnD dept to do the same to test out all our ideas. But I will agree, Bill does take a little of this stuff maybe too personally sometimes, sorry Bill,lol, but I, or maybe even you would to if you felt it was an attack against your hard work. From what I understand you do amazing work with sheet intakes and seem to know a thing or two about porting and I can't imagine how things would get if you felt the same as he or any of us did about criticizing our workmanship.....

Jack-
Judging by your car (love it BTW), i wouldn't say either one was correct, stupid OR bias. Going by how you car runs, you, like many, are just tired of the talk and want to see results like anyone would with an untested product..I would think that if a part came out that you felt would give you an advantage, you would be more than willing to pay the money and make the swap. Being bias would just mean you wouldn't be interested no matter how much faster your car would be with said part. And if it is based off of personal issues with Bill, which is nobodies business anyway, who says you have to have Bill do them?

Bruce-
I am sure it is not an all out build. He is doing what the customer can afford, and is interested in doing, which is what we all have to do. I don't think you would need to have to explain the situation, it is what it is. Power from a given combination. Bill does nice work. I have been telling people for years, just because builders are limited to what the customer's budget is, doesn't mean we can't make more power. Not everyone can afford maxxed out combinations. I wouldn't look at it like that is the only kind of power that we can build or that is the only kind of power those heads can make, but look at the entire combination and let the car tell the story when it goes down the track. No need for "shoulda woulda couldas" really. Intelligent people will know if the power made with anything is impressive if they look at it as a combination and not just cubic inch. I for one know how people can be as far as criticism goes, trust me, so just let the work and results speak for the builder, looking at the whole package and not just at a particular part, and don't post results until you know that every effort was made to achieve that result. Forget the "IF" it had more gear or "IF" the converter was right or "IF" he had more cam or "IF" it had CV heads instead of Tigers...I look at it like this. IF the customer is happy, and you met or exceeded his goals for the money spent, that's all that matters.

Sorry for the novel guys, just wanted to respond to everyone while maintaining a level of a respect to those I responded to rather than make a half dozen posts..normally I try to keep it short and sweet

If someone attacked my work, i would go postal and blow everyone the f@*k up
I take my chit serious!

[Jeff Kinsler]

Originally Posted by john marcella

If someone attacked my work, i would go postal and blow everyone the f@*k up
I take my chit serious!

[LiL Jack]

Originally Posted by BruceWilkie

Jack prior to the head work this motor only made 824 HP. Wasnt built or ported by Bill or Calvin originally... Did you notice that no one mentioned who built it that way or the customers name? Nobody needs to be criticized. It was what it was and its changed considerably for the better.

They redid the heads... had to change pistons (I'm sure for good reason) which slightly lowered compression and picked up over 150 hp and over 50 ft lbs over the same basic rpm band... no small feat considering same everything else! I'm sure there is more power to be found if the customer decides to go for it.

Instead of being critical why dont we find out more details about what the combo was before Bill ported it?
You seem to be assuming things about this build that havent been told.
You shouldnt be shocked to find out that Tigers dont automatically equal Langer power.

And fwiw, I dont recall any of us criticizing your NA power or your head porters work on your combo.

I can tell you the details of the motor before....it was a really dumb SOB who put that one together!

[twinturrbo406]

Originally Posted by LiL Jack

I can tell you the details of the motor before....it was a really dumb SOB who put that one together!

... right, if you knew who that was, you would not say that ...

[LiL Jack]

Okay, so not a genius?

All Pontiac said they can give me a set of ported heads,intake and cam and put it on a non exotic 535 and make 1000-1050 HP.

824 on a set of Tigers is kinda sad.

So who built it?

[twinturrbo406]

Originally Posted by LiL Jack

Okay, so not a genius?

All Pontiac said they can give me a set of ported heads,intake and cam and put it on a non exotic 535 and make 1000-1050 HP.

824 on a set of Tigers is kinda sad.

So who built it?

... unfortunately, that is none of your business Jack ... and you talk like every Tiger engine out there makes 1000hp or better, and no disrespect to anyone here or anywhere else, but that is just not the case ...