[b-man]

PY member Bruce Meyer pointed out how deep the '59 pan looked compared to later pans, in the Street forum where I'm running this same thread subject. I really hadn't noticed it myself, but I was curious and got out the tape measure.

Good eye on the oil pan Bruce.

I measured my '64 421 HO oil pan and it is 6-7/8" deep at the center of the flat portion of the sump to the top of the pan rail.



The 1959 pan measures 7-7/8" in the same spot, one full inch deeper.

[mechanickeith]

The deep pans should be running 7 quarts total with a full sized filter.

[Jack Gifford]

Was there more than one '59 pan? I didn't recall them being that deep.

[Bill Hanlon]

I don't know what the difference was Jack, but the 1960 Master Parts Catalog lists "PUMP AND PAN package, Engine Oil, part number 989644" as available for 1959 and 1960 cars in the "SPECIAL ENGINE AND CHASSIS" section.

[Bill Hanlon]

... and wouldn't it make sense to sell as one part number a deeper oil pan with an oil pump that required a deeper oil pan??

[b-man]

.....a few more things before the holidays are over with. Tomorrow it's back to work so there will be less time to fiddle around and clean filthy old engine parts.

I removed the fuel pump eccentric, the timing set and the cam thrust plate. Everything came apart easily without a fight, I gently pried with two long screwdrivers on each side of the cam sprockets and slid them off without any fuss.



The timing chain is a bit stretched, but really not all that bad. Being in decent shape tells me that it was serviced not all that long before the car was sent to the boneyard. It will be replaced with a good used double-roller set I have kicking around.



Trying to ID the cam here, not quite sure what that stamping indicates. The factory stock '472' cam would have letter stamp 'D' on the nose. Not that it really matters all that much, I just want to know for the sake of learning the history on this old 389.

This old worn cam will be replaced with a good used 068 cam and lifter set, that is if it all checks out good. If not, I'll buy some new parts.



Here's the fuel pump eccentric assembly that also serves to fasten the upper timing sprocket to the nose of the cam.



Note that the outer sliding ring on the pump eccentric is not trapped or held onto the inner eccentric other than by the fuel pump drive arm, unlike later designs. This means you can't run the engine with an electric pump by just simply blocking off the pump opening in the timing cover with a plate, you must remove the timing cover and take off the outer ring so it won't foul up the works in there.



The distributor slipped right out, often on Pontiac engines they're stuck tight from varnish buildup. I've struggled with these in the boneyards and given up and left them there, even after standing on top of the engine twisting and tugging with all my might while using penetrating oil or solvent to loosen it.



Turns out it's a distributor that's used on a lot of '64 -'66 GTO engine applications, part number 1111054. I have the same 1111054 distributor that's been rebuilt and re-curved in my '64 421 HO.



Looks to be in good shape, so I'll give a good wiping down and use it as-is after putting a new set of points in it. These old iron-body distributors are very nice and accurate. The shaft bushings don't seem to wear out on them easily, they're a very good basis for a performance distributor build.



Here's the sexy, professionally restored/rebuilt 1111054 that now resides in my '64 421 HO.



Back to sleep until next time, I left the oil pan off to give the last bit of dirty oil a chance to drip out.

[b-man]

Tossed a few items on our shipping scale at work.

The bare iron timing cover weighed in at a whopping 18 pounds. The water pump added another 4.5 pounds.



Tri-Power intake weighs 39.5 pounds. Comparable to the weight of the popular '67 -'72 iron Q-jet intakes.



The 2-barrel intake weighs 38.5 pounds, surprisingly just one pound less than the Tri-Power.

[b-man]

I removed the oil pump, took it apart and cleaned it up. Here are a few of the differences between it and the later Melling M54DS 60 psi replacement pump.

To begin with it has helical pump gears in it, something I really didn't expect to see.



Melling straight-cut gears on the left, 1959 OEM gears on the right.



The pickup tube on the Melling pump is .750" O.D. with the 1959 pickup tube measuring only .575".





Here's a look at the pump castings themselves, note the different angles of the relief valves.





The pump cavities look very much the same on both, no real differences that I could detect.

[Bill Hanlon]

Originally Posted by b-man

I removed the oil pump, took it apart and cleaned it up. Here are a few of the differences between it and the later Melling M54DS 60 psi replacement pump.

Going back to the deep oil pan question, is the height of the removed oil pump and swinging pickup on the pump with the helical gears the same as the M54DS? I'm guessing the old pump and pickup are taller to take advantage of the deeper sump on the pan.

[b-man]

Originally Posted by Bill Hanlon

Going back to the deep oil pan question, is the height of the removed oil pump and swinging pickup on the pump with the helical gears the same as the M54DS? I'm guessing the old pump and pickup are taller to take advantage of the deeper sump on the pan.

At full droop the furthest out tip of the swinging pickup can almost touch the bottom of the pan, measuring close to 7-7/8" from the base of the pump where it bolts to the block. This measurement pretty closely matches the depth of the pan. The pickup can swing upwards until the flat portion of the pickup nearest to the pump measures 6-1/2" from the pump base.

The pickup on the used Melling M54DS pump shown in the pics sits about 6-1/2 from the pump base. The pickup would probably be about 1/2" from the bottom of a later shallower pan, so we're looking at about 1-1/2" from the bottom of the '59 pan. That large amount of clearance won't do, so in order to use it I'd have to use an aftermarket dropped pickup of some sort.

The pump bodies are exactly the same height on both pumps, roughly 6-1/2" from the center of the pump bottom plate.

[Bill Hanlon]

I have a new set of helical gears if you need them.

[Safari Larry]

Thanks b-man for all you're doing with posting these photos. This is VERY interesting.

[U47]

Originally Posted by Safari Larry

Thanks b-man for all you're doing with posting these photos. This is VERY interesting.

Hey Larry how are you? What did you think of the condition of those water distribution tubes! Remember the story I told you about my 59 cat and it's 420"A" 's disintegrated brass tubes.....Twice! before we switched to 60 SD heads! I have a friend who pulled apart a very low mileage 57 347 and the tubes were perfect and stainless steel!

Don

[Safari Larry]

Originally Posted by U47

Hey Larry how are you? What did you think of the condition of those water distribution tubes! Remember the story I told you about my 59 cat and it's 420"A" 's disintegrated brass tubes.....Twice! before we switched to 60 SD heads! I have a friend who pulled apart a very low mileage 57 347 and the tubes were perfect and stainless steel!

Don

Yes Don, I remember that well, as I recall you had problems with them twice before switching to a '60 engine. Your's is the only post-56 tubes I've heard of that were brass. Pontiac switched from brass to stainless tubes mid year '56. The 55-56 tubes are different (round) than the 57-59 tubes. They are often very difficult or impossible to remove without destroying them.

[BruceWilkie]

Originally Posted by Safari Larry

Yes Don, I remember that well, as I recall you had problems with them twice before switching to a '60 engine. Your's is the only post-56 tubes I've heard of that were brass. Pontiac switched from brass to stainless tubes mid year '56. The 55-56 tubes are different (round) than the 57-59 tubes. They are often very difficult or impossible to remove without destroying them.

When I first got my present 59 block it had 1960 heads on it and gusher tubes in them(stainless) same as the tubes that were in the 59 420A motor I had at the time. They were in excellent shape in terms of corrosion or damage. I believe the shape was so it would be very difficult(except for an idiot with a hammer) to install with coolant holes facing the wrong direction. Both motors had been sitting since 62 when the owner died. The 420A was still in the car and still had coolant in it(31k on odometer) the other a fresh performance build that by all indications was never run.(It was sitting on ground next to the car). (car was found about 30 miles north of Syracuse NY in a colder snowier region) The "built" 59 had the ports heavily taped including water crossover and no intake.

[U47]

Originally Posted by Safari Larry

Yes Don, I remember that well, as I recall you had problems with them twice before switching to a '60 engine. Your's is the only post-56 tubes I've heard of that were brass. Pontiac switched from brass to stainless tubes mid year '56. The 55-56 tubes are different (round) than the 57-59 tubes. They are often very difficult or impossible to remove without destroying them.

I remember telling you that the engine for my car was one of those engines hand built in the Pontiac tool room as were all NASCAR engines. I'm wondering if that had something to do with it.

[gavin]

I remember a post were some one said they used the late straight gears in the early early pump body.I will see if I can find it.

[Bill Hanlon]

Originally Posted by gavin

I remember a post were some one said they used the late straight gears in the early early pump body.I will see if I can find it.

I have put a set of gears from a M54D (1959 and newer) into a pump that was on my '57 347" (Pontiac) GMC and run it on the street for 10+ years. No hot rod, but daily driven for 70,000+ miles like this.

[gavin]

OK pontirag said he used the gears out of a late 60 lb mellings pump and they go straight in with no mods.

[b-man]

I put most of the cleaned-up parts back on the 389 so I can begin figuring out mounting it on a test stand that I'm trying to put together.

Starting to look more like a hot rod engine now with the Tri-Power intake perched on top. The thermostat housing shown here is from a 1965 Tri-Power, I also have 1964 and 1966 housings I can use depending on which way the radiator hose needs to go. I may even decide to search out a 1959 housing that has an engine lifting loop built into the casting.





I put the front cover and water pump back on temporarily so I could check out the fit of the water pump pulley I was able to acquire from fellow PY forum member Bruce Wilkie. Everything lines up just like it should.



Also acquired a 1959 distributor along with the pulley, just for the sake of having as many 1959 parts as possible on this engine. This old iron body distributor features an oiling cup, you add a few drops of motor oil to keep the upper distributor bushing lubed every 1,000 miles.



Distributor ID tag shows part # 1110943.