[Half-Inch Stud]

Originally Posted by Formulas

what came first the flat lobe (chicken) or the non spinner (egg)

The chosen cam, specs, springs, lifters and install methods (the rooster).

[PAUL K]

The attached photo shows a parts quality issue. This is what causes lobe failures. This lifter failed because it was soft, the reason the lifter was destroyed is because it was used on a quality cam core. You can lube everything until the parts will slip through Hell and you"re still going to have an issue if the parts aren't right.... No "break in" procedure, no EDM oiling hole, and no amount of zinc or quality oil is going to prevent this.

After many years of blaming the oil and the break in procedure, the truth is finally out. It's been piss poor quality parts. In addition to a non-existent quality lifter choices, we now have to be concerned about the quality of the cam cores. The "good" guys aren't supplying the cam cores anymore.

[Jay S]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

Ooo, well I'm not so sure butler has a ton of experience with that line of camshaft. That's a custom grind from Paul using voodoo lobes and Paul's experience with it has dialed in spring pressures he likes to see. Many shops for what ever reason seem to be a smidge light on spring pressure with these hydraulic rollers. Checking install height and seat pressures might shed some light on a possible root cause for your failure.

Actually, it may have been the opposite on the springs. May have had to much spring... I don’t know what the failed engine had for springs, but over revving the engine the hyd lifters have to absorb all the energy of a over rev’d blast. If the lifters are not up for it and collapse, well…not good. Judging by the devastation of the failure, my guess is was to much spring pressure (perhaps a 5845 edl?), with too weak of a lifter.

I have a machinist/engine builder friend that has been complaint about soft cam and lifters this last year. He was so frustrated he has started look for old NOS parts before he ordered new. Rockwell down below 40s on lifters, and well below that on some cams.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by scott70

When I ordered my custom HFT cam from crower a few years ago I asked about nitriding which they offered but he told me I didnt need it so he talked me out of it. The cam was close in numbers to a RA4 specs. Using rhoads V max and crower enduro 1.60 rockers and havent seen any problems yet. Ive pulled apart a few factory built blocks and found lifters that had stopped spinning with a worn lobe.

Typically, everything should be fine without the nitriding. However for as little as it costs I feel it's always a good idea and it certainly doesn't hurt. There are no downsides to it. I also do the EDM lifters along with it for pressurized oil directly on the lobes. Again, not a necessity but it doesn't hurt.

With those 2 things done I only see the life of the cam and lifters extended and it's a little piece of mind for the always tense break in session. I figure if you take all those precautions and you still have a flat cam issue, then you have to be doing something else drastically wrong.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by Jay S

Actually, it may have been the opposite on the springs. May have had to much spring... I don’t know what the failed engine had for springs, but over revving the engine the hyd lifters have to absorb all the energy of a over rev’d blast. If the lifters are not up for it and collapse, well…not good. Judging by the devastation of the failure, my guess is was to much spring pressure (perhaps a 5845 edl?), with too weak of a lifter.

.

Very well could be. That's sometimes the issue you run into when you source a cam from someone else, complete heads from another person, and then yet another shop that does the machine work and assembly. No telling who or if the spring pressures were checked, and highly unlikely the machinist contacted Paul to ask what kind of spring pressure he uses with that particular cam and lobe profile.

Butler is primarily a Comp dealer, so he is obviously more familiar with what he likes to use for springs on his cam grinds. What that is would be anyone's guess unless those springs are removed and checked. But the chances are better than average it's probably not what Paul C has found to be needed with his custom cam grind. Then you couple that with the OP over revving the engine to 7000 rpm and valvetrain control becomes a serious problem. Parts start crashing together and eventually something gives.

[77 TRASHCAN]

Originally Posted by PAUL K

The attached photo shows a parts quality issue. This is what causes lobe failures. This lifter failed because it was soft, the reason the lifter was destroyed is because it was used on a quality cam core. You can lube everything until the parts will slip through Hell and you"re still going to have an issue if the parts aren't right.... No "break in" procedure, no EDM oiling hole, and no amount of zinc or quality oil is going to prevent this.

After many years of blaming the oil and the break in procedure, the truth is finally out. It's been piss poor quality parts. In addition to a non-existent quality lifter choices, we now have to be concerned about the quality of the cam cores. The "good" guys aren't supplying the cam cores anymore.

Just to make sure, I'm following you. The LH lifter started out the same overall height as the rhythm lifter!!!

I've had one lifter/lobe failure, only. The number 7 exhaust lobe started going down at about 60,000 on my original TA 400 engine. It's still on a stand, as it came out of my Mar, in 1992. Replaced the 400 with a 1970 350.

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by 77 TRASHCAN

Just to make sure, I'm following you. The LH lifter started out the same overall height as the rhythm lifter!!!

I've had one lifter/lobe failure, only. The number 7 exhaust lobe started going down at about 60,000 on my original TA 400 engine. It's still on a stand, as it came out of my Mar, in 1992. Replaced the 400 with a 1970 350.

Yes Sir that is correct. Not sure I would complain (not that you are) about a lifter/lobe failure after 60k miles.... Nowadays a lot of them don't make it past a dyno session!

I had a conversation in regards to lifter failure with (arguably) the number one person on the planet when it comes to flat tappet lifters. We were discussing a box of failed lifters I sent back for inspection. When discussing different manufacturers, he said one of his competitors makes a decent lifter but they will have a hard time surviving thirty thousand miles. Considering I couldn't get his lifters to make it off the test stand we immediately switched to his "competitors" lifters and never had an issue.

I hope you are feeling better!

[64speed]

So are the Hylift-Johnson lifters sold by Butler the be all end all or is there something else I should be looking at?

[77 TRASHCAN]

Paul, thanks!
Doing and feeling much better. Tomorrow will be my last day in the hospital!!!

I wonder how many folks that have experienced failed lifters, have had a n O. E. lifter on a stock cam go bad???

Looking forward to working on some of the parts I've bought from you, and others, in the near future (might be around Thanksgiving when that happens, BUT I will be thankful when that day comes!!!

[Johnny406]

Originally Posted by 64speed

So are the Hylift-Johnson lifters sold by Butler the be all end all or is there something else I should be looking at?

The Rhoads lifters are American made, not a re-boxed anything from anywhere. I've been running the V-Max lifters for years and I love them.

[77 TRASHCAN]

Originally Posted by 64speed

So are the Hylift-Johnson lifters sold by Butler the be all end all or is there something else I should be looking at?

Yes, that's what I've learned from being a member, here!!!

If there's something better, I'm listening!!

Everyone keep in mind, there IS another company named Johnson lifters, NOT related to Hylift Johnson.

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by 77 TRASHCAN

Paul, thanks!
Doing and feeling much better. Tomorrow will be my last day in the hospital!!!

I wonder how many folks that have experienced failed lifters, have had a n O. E. lifter on a stock cam go bad???

Looking forward to working on some of the parts I've bought from you, and others, in the near future (might be around Thanksgiving when that happens, BUT I will be thankful when that day comes!!!

Oh my! I didn't realize you have been in the hospital all this time. I would've gladly sent you a box of car magazines to help pass the time.... That really sucks! I'm glad you are homeward bound soon.

I remember Chevrolet had a cam/lobe issue in the late 70's. I never noticed any issues on the late seventies Pontiac engines I took apart back in the day. A lot of sludge issues though. I'm curious if any of your exhaust valves had a noticeable crack starting at the edge and going straight towards the stem? I borrowed a friend's 77 TA to take my drivers test. When we pulled the heads off that car it had atleast two valves that were cracked that way.

[Formulajones]

Have a 65 327/300 hp here that is completely original and unopened that has lost a few lobes on the camshaft. Mileage unknown but was running and driving for a while in one of the cars here when it started popping through the carb one day. That happened around 1980 or so long before all the oil quality discussions, long before we even had computers or the internet, lol.

It could have simply been a lot of miles and maybe it had served it's usefulness. They were never designed to last forever.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by Johnny406

The Rhoads lifters are American made, not a re-boxed anything from anywhere. I've been running the V-Max lifters for years and I love them.

Supposedly, everyone here that has talked about Rhoads at one time or another always mentions they are in fact Johnson lifters and Rhoads takes them and does their own internal modifications to them.

I've read that claim numerous times on this forum.

[dataway]

When I tore town my original YS 400 with about 110,000 miles it had one lifter dished to the point that it had a pin hole in the face, cam lobe had a matching profile It actually still ran decent and didn't make any lifter noise.

[P@blo]

Originally Posted by PAUL K

Yes Sir that is correct. Not sure I would complain (not that you are) about a lifter/lobe failure after 60k miles.... Nowadays a lot of them don't make it past a dyno session!

I had a conversation in regards to lifter failure with (arguably) the number one person on the planet when it comes to flat tappet lifters. We were discussing a box of failed lifters I sent back for inspection. When discussing different manufacturers, he said one of his competitors makes a decent lifter but they will have a hard time surviving thirty thousand miles. Considering I couldn't get his lifters to make it off the test stand we immediately switched to his "competitors" lifters and never had an issue.

I hope you are feeling better!

Thanks for posting that information Paul. Would it be possible to post a picture of the HFT lifter you are now using?

Or does it look anything like the attached picture?

[Half-Inch Stud]

My opinion: Rhoads used highest quality Lifter cores.

My other opinion: i have seen the soft-metal lifter wear down like the prior post showed.

Oh one more: Seen OE OHC-6 cam lobe wipe out seen a few times. 68 350 lobe wipe &-lifter dish out.

[racegto65]

Originally Posted by 64speed

I called crower today and talked springs and break in. I was told that they started recommending inner springs be removed because of the high rate of failure among hobbyists. This is not my first rodeo and they said it’s not absolutely necessary just follow good break in practices. I am using Lucas 30w break in oil and a bottle of Lucas ZDDP just in case. I feel confident I can do it. My only concern is to get it to fire right off. Anyone got any tips for that?

The break in oil is a very good idea. I don't use any extra sinc additive after reading a industry paper stating that sometimes break in oil and zinc additives don't mix well.
I also do all my break ins with the springs I install on engines I build. In fact, I just
delivered 3 in August all equipped with HFT cams and no failures.

[Sirrotica]

There is also papers written that too much zinc in oil is as damaging as not enough. Just know there is such a thing as, too much of a good thing. There is a PPM general spec that should be adhered to.

I tend to believe what Paul K says, that there a lot of inferior parts in the pipeline, that don't have the correct alloys, or hardness specifications. No oils, or additives will help inferior parts live.

[Lemans64]

Just to throw in another comment I have heard, that if you let the vehicle idle lots it's hard on camshaft and lifters due to
lack of lube getting tossed around? Just something I have heard.