[67Dan]

Originally Posted by Old Goat 67

Well guys and gals,

Just proved one thing to myself today. It's VERY easy to pull the impellor off of a water pump! Ten minutes, 7/16" coarse tap and a puller.



Charles

If that is the sorry pump, sure has tall fins not to have the right clearance!

[aronhk_md]

Yes Charles...I had no problem adjusting mine out the necessary amount, so unless theres another type with a tapered shaft as some people think......

but honestly I doubt it.

The height of the fins really has nothing to do with where and how far its pressed on the shaft Dan by itself.......its how far those fins are from the PLATE. Though I do think the deeper fins will make it more efficient than one with shallow fins.....and thats a separate subject along the same pump thinking line. I just think in todays age with these companies that remanufacture the pumps, they have just forgotten if they ever really knew that these need to be pressed on an EXACT amount.

Pontiac knew that back then, but not the re-man companies today. I think they are just told......."make sure these are pressed on at least X amount, but no more than Y amount". So thats what they do. And since they will SORTA work as long as they are within that range nobody has second guessed it until George and the other guy who started this thread. But of course just pressing it on the shaft within an acceptable range doesnt mean its optimal......or even technically correct according to the original Pontiac engineers' designs.

[Old Goat 67]

Originally Posted by 67Dan

If that is the sorry pump, sure has tall fins not to have the right clearance!

Yes, that is the same pump posted on page 1 of this thread.

Originally Posted by aronhk_md

The height of the fins really has nothing to do with where and how far its pressed on the shaft Dan by itself.......its how far those fins are from the PLATE. Though I do think the deeper fins will make it more efficient than one with shallow fins.....and thats a separate subject along the same pump thinking line. I just think in todays age with these companies that remanufacture the pumps, they have just forgotten if they ever really knew that these need to be pressed on an EXACT amount.

Pontiac knew that back then, but not the re-man companies today. I think they are just told......."make sure these are pressed on at least X amount, but no more than Y amount". So thats what they do. And since they will SORTA work as long as they are within that range nobody has second guessed it until George and the other guy who started this thread. But of course just pressing it on the shaft within an acceptable range doesnt mean its optimal......or even technically correct according to the original Pontiac engineers' designs.

Exactly the point Aron.

Charles

[Stuckinda60s]

The larger fins move more water, hence they use more power. They have nothing to do with efficiency. Clearances are the clue to more efficiency.

[aronhk_md]

Sorry, didnt mean efficiency. Any vane size can be efficient....or not. What I meant was volume moved. The reason it draws more power, is as you say....its moving more water. Volume per given unit of time. If your radiator surface area is not saturated in its ability to scrub heat, then potentially you could scrub more heat moving greater volume. At the expense of power. Just moving more volume in and of itself doesnt mean you will stay cooler.

And yes, proper clearances increase efficiency. Hence moving the impeller to where the pontiac engineers likely meant it to be.

[Stuckinda60s]

Exactly. Although If you have a large radiator, you can actually potentially remove more heat by slowing the water down. It lowers the temperature of the water into the engine and can keep it cooler.

I posted some time ago about removing half the fins on my '68 GTO's water pump. It still cooled enough that I had to run a thermostat. The reason why I did it was to get some free hp at higher rpm's. I saw an article telling how AMC racer Wally Booth picked up 25 hp at 6500 rpm and thought I'd try it. I used it on the street and then in a '64 LeMans drag car that ran 11.80's at 114. It was marginal if I had to go rounds because I had a thin Nova radiator, but it still cooled pretty well.

[aronhk_md]

By slowing things down you will remove more heat from any given volume of water going through the radiator......but the temp of the water leaving the engine will go up somewhat in comparison to the water coming back into the motor from the radiator. Potentially this could leave areas of the motor warmer than others. In a roadracing car this might not be good.

By keeping the speed of circulating water up you keep a more even distribution of temperature......and again, as long as you havent exceeded the ability of your radiator to remove enough heat you should be fine. Which is why an overdrive water pump can help keep operating temps down on some cars. Drawing more power of course.

It very much depends which component is your limiting factor....so there really isnt any one answer when it comes to speeding up or slowing down the water circulation to aid in cooling. Preferably though for maximum HP its ideal to be able to slow it down.....if you can still keep it cool doing so, and as long as you dont leave any hot spots in the wrong places.

[Stuckinda60s]

Pontiac should never have gone away from the reverse flow cooling system. If they had kept that system they could have run more compression for more power. That system also benefits greatly from cooler inlet water.

[Old Goat 67]

Well guys and Gals,

We have good news to report today!

Gary Carr (GT182) and myself spent 34 minutes on the conference call with Therese Lal (Product Management - Pumps) & Abraham George (Head Engineer) at Cordone Industries. They were very receptive to working with us to get to the root of the problem with their water pumps. We then called Mike Spizziri in PY's Tech Support, explained to him where we were at on this, and he graciously added PY's support to get with Gary for a "show and tell" session tentatively set for week after next.

Looks like we stand a VERY good chance at getting some CORRECT water pumps out to the world for you fellows to rely on! I'll let Gary fill in the blanks.



Charles

[aronhk_md]

Nicely done guys. Thanks for looking into this. Hopefully it will be one less potential problem for our community.

[GT182]

But remember this too... Cardone is only one of many rebuilding Pontiac water pumps. Once Cardone gets the ball rolling, they should be the ones you request at a parts store, that they get their rebuilt pumps from Cardone for your replacement. These other rebuilders might not be as receptive as Cardone is.

At least Cardone is close by. I can't afford to travel to see these other guys. The Warden won't let me. LOL

[aronhk_md]

There is another factor too. Even if Cardone fixes the issue, how many pontiac water pumps do they have out there in the distribution system? Those on the shelf will have to be sold before new ones make their way to stores. It could be a while.

[Old Goat 67]

Well Aron, they told us today that they not only rebuild cores, but they make new ones as well.
We'll be sure to keep all informed as it progresses.

Charles

[aronhk_md]

Yes......what I'm saying is even with new units there are already pumps sitting in warehouses nationally, waiting to be delivered to stores. Cardone isnt going to ask for those to be sent back for adjustment. So it may be a while before new or rebuilt units with corrections hit the stores

[GT182]

Originally Posted by aronhk_md

Cardone isnt going to ask for those to be sent back for adjustment.

Don't count that out Aron. They also said if there's a problem they will fix it. If the impellers they're getting are no good and the supplier can't help, Cardone says they'll tool up and make their own. And it's possible they'll do a recall too.

So in away you are right, it' will take a bit of time. But the problems will be solved.... it won't be years, hopefully it'll be in a few months. I can live with that just knowing there will be something coming soon. They stand to make out very well on this if they do things right. After all they state they aim to be the best there is.

Here's their Quality Policy.

We believe the quality of our products and services is the most important issue to our customers; therefore quality is the foundation of our corporate culture.

We will produce products and services that meet customer requirements every time on time.

We will continually improve products and processes as the path to excellence.

[aronhk_md]

I do hope you are right

On another note...since we are both in DE maybe we'll run into each other somtime.

[GT182]

Ok, I've got to correct one thing. From the talk we had with Mike at PY, I assumed that Mike would join me at Cardone. My apologies to Mike for assuming that.

As he has since told me, he will be there if, and only if, he can get away with permission from Chris for the meeting. Hopefully that will happen. And hopefully Chris will be there too. Beside, it's important that Cardone samples from PY that will help our cause.... pumps and divider plates.

[drtracer58]

Strength in numbers , But thanks to all and to Cardone for Listening .................

[Old Goat 67]

Without saying a name, the PY representative is to be a very knowledgeable individual that does a lot of Pontiac engines. Looking for good things to come out of this meeting.

[drtracer58]

Does anybody know if it is possible to buy the bearing and seal to rebuild your own pump ?