[INJUNTOM]

Isn't that a new IA1 block on the stand next to my coupe? May be.

[INJUNTOM]

Originally Posted by gregsgtos2

tom s and steve-you guys are BRUTAL-but in a good kind of way.that is about as awesome as it gets in pontiac-especially in the RAV relm.as far as i can remember,there were 3 of these blocks built?injun tom-cool pic!

I wish it were of better quality.

Here's another pic that shows his little race shop next to his machine shop. You can see my coupe in there, and the Astre is behind the '63

[gregsgtos2]

injuntom-that is some good history with another cool pic.

[Steve Barcak]

Injun Tom says "Rudy was known to be hard to deal with. I can't tell you how many times I drove over to his place only to have the price or the terms of the deal change overnight. The price and terms changed while in the middle of buying my coupe from him as well. He really regretted selling it."
Yeah, that was part of the problem, we had an agreement, he wanted cash. I got it and brought it to ca. slept with it under my pillow in the motel room. then, the next day, the deal is different. I had had enough of that.

On the Astre. I am sure he himself told me it was totaled in no cal in the lights. I am very surprised to rear your post on that. don't know what to say but, I do not think I was mistaken. Maybe he built another? I don't know.

What I do know is he had chev power more than once when I saw it.
I also know that a/gas (7.60) and b/gas (8.60) classes are still sportsmans classes that, in nostalgia racing, has VERY little difference, if any, in payouts. I cannot imagine a die hard Pontiac guy removing his beloved Pontiac motor and putting in a 540" rat ( cheap? I think NOT. 540" rats are not found in junk yards!), having to chage flywheels, headers, etc, etc. just to try to run 1 second quicker in an idex class? .....and have shelves FULL of wild Pontiac stuff sitting around? I do not buy the line the ' he didn't like the chev'.
He did what he did and he will be forever remembered for his actions ( as others will be ).
Look at what Jerry S said in an earlier post.

He sell you his car with the condition that you do not put a chev in it? but it is OK for him to put a chev in his own fancy race car? hmmmmm

Probably time to move on and away from this particular subject. However, if anyone has pics of Rudys car from the magazine or others. Please post them.

His Astre was a great Pontiac race car! Running in the 8s in the 70s! and with a clutch too! How cool is that! Imagine going from an exotic 2-4 Ram Air V/Lenco deal to a 540 rat? That is how you separate yourself from doing something very special and very cool and changing to something very common and boring to watch.

I could not imagine anyone else with so much trick Pontiac stuff, being such a hard core Pontiac guy, having a trick chassis and then putting in a 540 rat. B-O-R-I-N-G.

Steve

Hosting 11th annual Pontiac Heaven, show, swap, drags, party and all around good time. Saturday April 4, 2009 at Speedworld near Phoenix, Az
Also hosting- 7th annual Nostalgic Show and Go! and swap coming Sunday April 5, 2009 to Speedworld. Phoenix, Az

[gregsgtos2]

steve-your mailbox is full.

[pontbil]

Wasn't there a guy in Glen Burnie MD running a black 64 GTO with a RAV. NSS stick car as I remember. Low to mid 9's ?? What ever happen to him havent seen the car around?? I will look to see if I have a picture to post.

[Brian Baker]

Originally Posted by pontbil

Wasn't there a guy in Glen Burnie MD running a black 64 GTO with a RAV. NSS stick car as I remember. Low to mid 9's ?? What ever happen to him havent seen the car around?? I will look to see if I have a picture to post.

Charlie Baesch. He's run that '64 for going on 20 years now. He was running a 428 V in it for a time, but when he bought Steve Minton's "Mob City" Firebird, he transplanted the engine into the GTO, which is an E-head combo, and ground off all the i.d. marks and painted the heads to make it look like a factory piece (but the angled plugs give it away - LOL). Charlie's been 9.70's (with the E-head combo he pulled from the "Mob" car...which is quicker than he's been with the V combo), but I don't think he's been any quicker than that...doing it on a 10-10.5" slick with the OEM chassis. In recent years he has done the Pro Stick deal, but mostly has done the NSS deal, hanging out with the Ford guys from MANDRA and NETO at the nostalgia/NSS events.

[sdbob]

Just to add which I've probably posted before. I saw a set of V heads on Fred davissons bench in 70-71.Previously I had been talking to a guy JIm Miller in Monroeville about Pontiacs.He was racing roundy round dirt car 61 Pontiac.When I told JIm about the heads he must have bought them as the next time I was over they were there.He ahd someone do some work on them as they came with sodium filled valves (exhaust?)I remembe rhim saying.Then I happened apon a WW IV sr block from a local dealer,which we traded.Jim then proceeded to acquire the special Moldex crank small journal for the 400,with special instructions as Is aw them. This engine was put together and installed in a 69GTO(I helped with the body believe it was a Tempest/Lemans).The car was owned-driven by Don gamble but Jim did all the mechanicals.I saw the car run twice this way. It was a semilatemodel.I think the max ci was 400(Jim laughed about that as the Chebies were 454's)The carb had to be a 2bbl.Holley dominator cut in 2 on the V manifold.When the V GTO was winning the Chebies were not happy. Don would come down for the start on the front row the first turn they were neck and neck on the back stretch the V would literally walk away from the pack. These Chebie guys were serious and they were not happy that Don was making them lose.There was an article in H-O's monthly paper about the car.Callin Don a 'hog' for winning the qualifing,dash, and heats 1 night at North Hills raceway.I followed them for about 2 yrs then got involved with something else and lost track.I know the engine was sold as Don went the dark side for cheaper $.

[RAM AIR V]

I’ve had multiple emails ranging from: How many crate V engines where made? To: Do I know if any dealers ever sold cars with factory installed V engines?

Being it is 2 degrees outside; I’ll answer publicly in case anyone else is interested. This is in the race section so I keep it brief.

I was never sponsored by Pontiac or received free parts from them, so I only know what I have read about the inner workings of the program and personally only believe a portion of that. Everyone always thinks of the RAV as a 1969 engine and it was not. It could barely be called a 1970 engine. Engineering was obviously working on it and some well known guys were able to get parts, but you could not walk into a dealer and order them in 1969.

Can’t remember the exact date, but I tried to purchase a crate 400 V engine around Sept/Oct. of 1969. Jackshaw Pontiac was the well known performance dealer in the Cleveland area so I contacted them but was told they were not availible. I called Royal and was told the same thing, then called Knafel and was told the same thing. If any of them would have had a car available on the lot with a V engine at that time, I would have known about it.

In 1970, was told by Jackshaw that they pulled some strings and was able to get me a crate engine. Can’t find the bill, but I believe it was mid summer. It went into a 68 Firebird. I asked them to order a second, but was told no more were available. I tried ordering a set of extra heads and was told the only way I could is if the heads on the crate engine became damaged and in that case I would have to surrender the damaged ones.

It was around April 1971, when I was informed that the V engine and parts were available now. Received my second crate engine in May, 1971. Remember that because I ordered a set of bare castings a month later just in case and found that bill. I remember the second engine showing up with more paper work. The report I have is dated March 23, 1971.

Can’t say with any certainty how many crate engines were made - heard many conflicting numbers. I don’t believe there ever was a complete over the counter 69 RAV crate 400 engine. Only seen pictures of a 2 mounting hole cast V block. All the cast 400 V blocks that I have seen and owned have 5 mounting holes. Jan. 21, 1970 seems to be the common date. Obviously there was a major delay if they ran a run of blocks in Jan., but the RAV report was not even written for over a year later. Always heard it was the rods but can not confirm.

Got something interesting last year – was sent a copy of a letter signed by Tom Nell. It states about 20 engines as of Oct. 1970, but obviously more were completed later.

Jerry

[johnta1]

Jerry, you paid $60 apiece for the heads?

Were they bare or complete?

[INJUNTOM]

What a deal

[Brian Baker]

$120 for a pair of V heads?! Quickly, Sherman! Into the Wayback Machine!

[Wareagle]

Originally Posted by RAM AIR V

I’ve had multiple emails ranging from: How many crate V engines where made? To: Do I know if any dealers ever sold cars with factory installed V engines?

Being it is 2 degrees outside; I’ll answer publicly in case anyone else is interested. This is in the race section so I keep it brief.

I was never sponsored by Pontiac or received free parts from them, so I only know what I have read about the inner workings of the program and personally only believe a portion of that. Everyone always thinks of the RAV as a 1969 engine and it was not. It could barely be called a 1970 engine. Engineering was obviously working on it and some well known guys were able to get parts, but you could not walk into a dealer and order them in 1969.

Can’t remember the exact date, but I tried to purchase a crate 400 V engine around Sept/Oct. of 1969. Jackshaw Pontiac was the well known performance dealer in the Cleveland area so I contacted them but was told they were not availible. I called Royal and was told the same thing, then called Knafel and was told the same thing. If any of them would have had a car available on the lot with a V engine at that time, I would have known about it.

In 1970, was told by Jackshaw that they pulled some strings and was able to get me a crate engine. Can’t find the bill, but I believe it was mid summer. It went into a 68 Firebird. I asked them to order a second, but was told no more were available. I tried ordering a set of extra heads and was told the only way I could is if the heads on the crate engine became damaged and in that case I would have to surrender the damaged ones.

It was around April 1971, when I was informed that the V engine and parts were available now. Received my second crate engine in May, 1971. Remember that because I ordered a set of bare castings a month later just in case and found that bill. I remember the second engine showing up with more paper work. The report I have is dated March 23, 1971.

Can’t say with any certainty how many crate engines were made - heard many conflicting numbers. I don’t believe there ever was a complete over the counter 69 RAV crate 400 engine. Only seen pictures of a 2 mounting hole cast V block. All the cast 400 V blocks that I have seen and owned have 5 mounting holes. Jan. 21, 1970 seems to be the common date. Obviously there was a major delay if they ran a run of blocks in Jan., but the RAV report was not even written for over a year later. Always heard it was the rods but can not confirm.

Got something interesting last year – was sent a copy of a letter signed by Tom Nell. It states about 20 engines as of Oct. 1970, but obviously more were completed later.

Jerry

Thanks for the update - Wareagle .

[RAM AIR V]

re was the only way you could get them from pontiac. the 4bl intake cost more than the heads. the duel quad intakes you had to know someone.....jerry s

[johnta1]

Ah ha.
The old razor blade setup.

You buy the heads cheap, but pay out the wazoo for the other parts.

[Skip Fix]

Saw a V motor in a 69 Firebird a guy had bought from the Gays here in Houston,actually Dickinson(where I bought my TA). They put it in the car for Donnie's brother at the dealership. Actually saw it in the bay of an inspection station next to where I was eating lunch a few years ago. Guy was shocked someone knew it was a V! I think it was in HPP or one of the other magazines a few years ago.

[gregsgtos2]

tom s,may go like you with the 10-1 cr.my 455sd block has 498 ci.rick said at 12-1,with the same setup as the one he built last year,worked out to about 680 hp.at 10-1 cr ,around 620 hp.told him that 10-1 would work for me so i can run pump gas also.over 600 hp with pump gas is going to be very fun on the street.

[tom s]

Greg,my 455 9.5CR street motor made 530HP and 529TQ first pull today with no tuning.Your 600 is a easy deal I think.My cam is 245-252.Tom

[brians]

Just out of useless trivia, I ran some numbers.

Pair RAV heads new - $120
Adjusted for 2007 inflation - $610 pr.


Pair RAV heads new - $120
RAV used in good shape 2008 – $12,000
Percent return – 9900%

Pair of new 1970 RAIV heads - $190 (don’t understand that vs. V?)
RAIV used in good shape 2008 – $4,000
Percent return – 2000%

New 1970 RAIV Judge – $5,000 est
Nice original 1970 RAIV Judge in 2008 $125,000 est.
Percent return – 2400%

New 1970 Hemi Cuda - $5,000 est
1970 Hemi Cuda in 2008 $187,000 (Las Vegas 2008 BJ)
Percent return – 3640%

1970 price of IBM stock - $16.90 (adjusted for splits)
All time high for IBM stock - $130.00 (1999)
Percent return – 669%

1970 price of GE stock - $.76 (adjusted for splits)
All time high for GE stock - $57.00 (2000)
Percent return – 7400%


Pontiac RAV heads = Best investment!!

[NHRASuperStock455SD]

LMAO Brians,

That is good stuff. I was in Tom Wood Pontiac to buy RA-V heads in 1971 and they were $120 each. The RA-IV heads were $180 each. We didnt understand that either.

However when we found out you had to change cams, that was too much for us. Only 16 in 1971.

Foder got some of the original stuff from Pontiac racing as he used to hang around the Romulus engine plant where they had a dyno shop for all of the Pontiac racing stuff. When thy blew it up on the dyno he got to take the pieces home.

He also got the heads off the original 69 Blue TA's. Remember the RA-V's proved to be too big for the 303's so they used RA-IVs on the short deck motors and went and kicked ass in California. Of course the story was that the TA wasnt competitive, but I was told they were informed never to bring back the short deck 400's after they got first and second place at one race! Sounds to me it was typical sanctioning body favoritism to me. Otherwise Jerry Titus would have done way better in his 70 TA. Can you imagine how long and heavy the rod is for a 10.250 deck 303 with a 3.00 stroke? How heavy the piston is?

Maybe Tom Vaught can chime in on the rule makers during this period and why the short decks were Gerrymandered out of existence to kill the dominance of the Pontiac engine.

Lynn