AutoWeek Mustang vs GTO - Page 6 - PY Online Forums

Mr_GTO · #**101** 02-02-2005, 03:09 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Brew:

Dunno how you figure, and dont much care. And even if there are cars from the past that look "similar", that has no bearing on this discussion. Why do you keep bringing up the past? I'm not comparing it to the "classic" muscle of yesteryear. I'm talking about the new GTO in a stand-alone way, and trying to express the reasons I think there is a disconnect with many auto enthusiasts, and especially the classic Pontiac guys, myself included.

But, of course, you dont care to have any discussion. You bought the most perfect car ever made, and anyone else who doesn't think so obviously has no idea wtf he is talking about. You are the be all, end all, in automotive discussions.

Pull your head out. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Brew, I wasn't the one that brought up the old vs New debate. He was. I just said the new GTO resembled the old GP. Then he said the old GP didn't look like the Old GTO. I proved him wrong on both counts.

The only disconnect are those that don't even want to look at the car at a dealer or drive one. They only take what "Automotive journalists" say about it.

Take my advice, GO DRIVE ONE. It will change your mind.

pont3 · #**102** 02-02-2005, 08:02 AM

The subtleness to blend in with everything else on the road and the muscle to lead the pack. Pretty fair tradeoff in my opinion. The styling may not be distinctive enough to please many but its distinctiveness from its modern contemporaries is about where it was back in the day. We all had difficulty distinguishing it when it first appeared but I bet any one who owns one can instantly recognize one.

Brew · #**103** 02-02-2005, 08:40 AM

MR.GTO, thanks for being civil in your last post. I dont need my mind changed. I would buy one if I was in the market for a car, as I believe the GTO is, by far, the best performance value out there today. That doesnt mean that I dont think the styling is sub-par for the reintroduction of an icon of automotive history!
Unfortunately, I require a pick-up truck, and I'm not ready to give up my PowerStroke. The wife, on the other hand, is in the market for a new ride, but she simply cannot get past the lack of distinctive styling. She'd rather have a Mustang.

I'm still working on her tho!

rabon008 · #**104** 02-02-2005, 10:45 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Brew:
That doesnt mean that I dont think the styling is sub-par for the reintroduction of an icon of automotive history! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Why do you keep bringing up the past? I'm not comparing it to the "classic" muscle of yesteryear. I'm talking about the new GTO in a stand-alone way, and trying to express the reasons I think there is a disconnect with many auto enthusiasts, and especially the classic Pontiac guys, myself included. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Brew, when you write words like history, past, enthusiasts, classic and icon then we must answer those words by comparison with the present. If we are going to talk only in the present, then why would you care what the car is called? The reason you care whether or not the car is called a "Pontiac GTO" is because of the past, and in particular, as you put it: "an icon of automotive history". Therefore we need to examine what that icon of automotive history was when it was introduced and see if the new GTO lives up. Affordability (when compared with contemporary performance cars), muscle (one of the most powerful V8 engines available from GM and one of the fastest stock cars in their line-up) and a slight appearance distinction from its contemporaries. All of these criteria hold true for both old and new cars.

Finally, if you are one of the "enthusiasts" who want a little retro, check out the thread titled "Stylin' Smilin'" where I posted a comparison of some features of a '70 GTO versus the new.

red70goat · #**105** 02-02-2005, 12:04 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Mr_GTO:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by red70goat:

>>> You have got to be kidding!!! Did the Fairlane have a recessed rear window? Did the RoadRunner have hideaways? Did either have a squashed ducktail lid? They didn't look _ANYTHING_alike.

>>> You admit to that?

>>> The difference between a boat and a goat? Not hardly, LeMans maybe. Hell not even Tempest due to the grill inserts being distinctively different. And you posted that admission on a Pontiac website? LOL!!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"Hmmm, going 70mph down one side of the highway and you see this .... it could be a GTO until you see it up close. Or this ... could be mistaken for a GTO. "

>>>> Again you admit to that???

"You seem to have a fetish with hidden headlights when they were never standard on a GTO, it was an OPTION."

>>> Hey IQ: Where in my post did I reference anything about the GTO having hidden headlights? I was referencing your ridiculous claim of similarities

between a Torino, RR, and a Charger. LOL!!!!

Brew · #**106** 02-02-2005, 01:06 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Rabon:
Brew, when you write words like history, past, enthusiasts, classic and icon then we must answer those words by comparison with the present. If we are going to talk only in the present, then why would you care what the car is called? The reason you care whether or not the car is called a "Pontiac GTO" is because of the past, and in particular, as you put it: "an icon of automotive history". Therefore we need to examine what that icon of automotive history was when it was introduced and see if the new GTO lives up. Affordability (when compared with contemporary performance cars), muscle (one of the most powerful V8 engines available from GM and one of the fastest stock cars in their line-up) and a slight appearance distinction from its contemporaries. All of these criteria hold true for both old and new cars. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But I'm NOT comparing the car to past GTOs as they were when they were in production, and that's the difference. In 1964, the GTO wasn't yet an icon. We have had 40 years to realize the importance and impact of the classic GTO, and in that time, people have found that these cars can create a certain passion in the enthusiast. So, to some of the people passionate about classic GTOs, the announcement of its return was met with both delicious anticipation as well as a certain dread that GM may screw it up. Some of us couldn't wait for a new GTO to be released, and a subsequent return to glory, and some of us couldn't wait for it to be released just so we could slam it at every opportunity.

Now, I understand the economics of the why and the how the new GTO looks like it does, but when you're passionate about GTOs, and have very high expectation (maybe too high), the styling effort GM put forth falls a little short. That's my take, anyway.

Of course, there are those that wont/cant give the new GTO an honest assessment because they may be blinded by their passion, but I think the majority of the people in the Pontiac community realize that this car is the best thing GM has done for the average enthusiast in a loooong time.

As far as retro goes, yes, I would have liked to see some styling cues from the past, but the 05 has granted my #1 wish/requirement. GTOs GOTTA have hood scoops, functional or not! I dont really care if it's retro ala the new Stang, I just want it to be distinctive, in an agressive, bad ass sort of way. To me, the 04, as sold, isn't there. The 05 is closer, but still not enough. The Woodward car was too much, IMO. From a marketing standpoint, a mixture of the 04 and the Wooward car would be just about perfect, and I believe would have increased sales and magazine receptiveness.

BTW, I'm curious as to how many of you new GTO owners currently own a classic GTO also. I know NickV does. How about the rest of you? Can you relate?

pont3 · #**107** 02-02-2005, 01:33 PM

Well, I currently own a '72 and have owned various years from 65-72. Many here don't consider any thing past '70 a classic GTO. We understand all the points the naysayers have made and to some extent, agree. However, we have moved beyond those points and accepted the car for what it is, rather than what it is not. The more I look at the '04 the better it looks(and the '05) and frankly, I don't find it bland at all. It is beautiful in a "non-retro" kind of way.

Brew · #**108** 02-02-2005, 01:57 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by pont3:
We understand all the points the naysayers have made and to some extent, agree. However, we have moved beyond those points and accepted the car for what it is, rather than what it is not. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Some of you have moved beyond those points, some of you have not.

And I, for one, love 72 GTOs.

Mr_GTO · #**109** 02-02-2005, 02:29 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by red70goat:

>>>> Again you admit to that???

>>> Hey IQ: Where in my post did I reference _anything_ about the GTO having hidden headlights? I was referencing your ridiculous claim of similarities

between a Torino, RR, and a Charger. LOL!!!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yea, Pontiacs are designed to look alike. Your ignorance with Pontiacs shows again.

Uh, I was pointing out the fact that you mentioned that RR'ers and hideaway headlights then I pointed out that they were not standard on GTO's.

I showed you the pics. Car people know cars and how to ID them. General Public doesn't.

Got those links for me yet? LOL

Tripower455 · #**110** 02-02-2005, 03:16 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>BTW, I'm curious as to how many of you new GTO owners currently own a classic GTO also. I know NickV does. How about the rest of you? Can you relate? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I own both, and can't relate to what you're saying.

I need the features of the new one, and want the features of the old one. If I could have only one, it would be the new one, since the old one is not practical as a daily driver........ The new one isn't great for taking to a car show, but what new car is?

BTW, I am a "car guy" (actually a Pontiac guy), and I wouldn't know a 300 from a 350Z or RX8 without reading the badges, because I have no interest in them.

BTW, a guy who owns numerous classic musclecars of many marques thought my '04 GTO was a Mustang the other day.

rabon008 · #**111** 02-02-2005, 03:24 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Brew:

In 1964, the GTO wasn't yet an icon. We have had 40 years to realize the importance and impact of the classic GTO, and in that time, people have found that these cars can create a certain passion in the enthusiast. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sure, I somewhat agree. Here's my personal history with my '04: I heard the GTO was coming back, was very interested. Then I first saw the pictures of the new GTO and wasn't impressed. I finally decided to go drive one and was VERY impressed. I studied Holden and Monaro history because I was so impressed. I bought a black on black 6speed a few days later. Each mile of the 7400 that I have put on it since has made me know for certain that the car is perfect for me. 40 years from now (if I live that long) I will be talking about my '04 whenever the subject of cars (and particularly muscle cars) comes up. Owning one has made me love the look so much that I don't want GM to change it in '07 (if that is the plan). Owning one has also made me know for certain that it is well worthy of the iconic name. I think that is similar to how the original Pontiac GTO became an icon: owners flat-out enjoying their cars.

red70goat · #**112** 02-02-2005, 04:23 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Mr_GTO:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by red70goat:

>>>> Again you admit to that???

>>> Hey IQ: Where in my post did I reference _anything_ about the GTO having hidden headlights? I was referencing your ridiculous claim of similarities

between a Torino, RR, and a Charger. LOL!!!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"Yea, Pontiacs are designed to look alike. Your ignorance with Pontiacs shows again."

>>> Mine? And you confuse a GTO with a Grand Prix? LMFAO!!! You'd best change your name to MR_Gee_WHATZAGTO?.

"Uh, I was pointing out the fact that you mentioned that RR'ers and hideaway headlights then I pointed out that they were not standard on GTO's."
>>> Wrong again Gomer. You mentioned nothing about the GTO having hideaways in context to the Fairlane/RR/ Charger or having anything in common with the GTO. And tell me again what body styles does a RR, Fairlane and a Charger have in common? Recessed window? NOT. Stacked headlights? NOT. Hideaways? NOT. Ducktail trunklid? NOT. Are they even close? NOT. Do you know what you are talking about? NOT. You'd best change your name to MR_Gee_IDONTHAVEACLUE.

"I showed you the pics.
>>> Yeah, I'm still laughing.

"Car people know cars and how to ID them. General Public doesn't."
>>> You must part of the general public, the ignorant part. Even the most uninformed commuter could readily tell the difference between the 3. You'd best change your name to MR_ Gee_ IDUNNO

"Got those links for me yet?"
>>> Gone to those forums yet? Found a 2007 GTO for me yet?

I've enclosed some pics of a 68 RR, GTO, Charger, Fairlane/Torino. Spend some time and try to sort them out. They do look similar.

LOL

red70goat · #**113** 02-02-2005, 04:26 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by red70goat:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mr_GTO:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by red70goat:

You're right, very similar

red70goat · #**114** 02-02-2005, 04:29 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by red70goat:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mr_GTO:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by red70goat:

MR_Gee_IDONTHAVEACLUE.

red70goat · #**115** 02-02-2005, 04:32 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by red70goat:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mr_GTO:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by red70goat:

>>>> You'd best change your name to MR_Gee_WHATZAGTO?.

The Who · #**116** 02-02-2005, 04:44 PM

red70goat, you remind me of my 14year old brother.

Brew · #**117** 02-02-2005, 04:48 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tripower455:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>BTW, I'm curious as to how many of you new GTO owners currently own a classic GTO also. I know NickV does. How about the rest of you? Can you relate? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I own both, and can't relate to what you're saying.

Really? You expected the GTO to look and perform like it does? With no disappointments upon seeing the first pictures?

I need the features of the new one, and want the features of the old one. If I could have only one, it would be the new one, since the old one is not practical as a daily driver........ The new one isn't great for taking to a car show, but what new car is?

Nobody's debating practicallty! Like I said before, IMO there's no better value out there for the performance.

BTW, I am a "car guy" (actually a Pontiac guy), and I wouldn't know a 300 from a 350Z or RX8 without reading the badges, because I have no interest in them.

Then you're not a "car guy", but an "old car guy", correct?

BTW, a guy who owns numerous classic musclecars of many marques thought my '04 GTO was a Mustang the other day. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That guy is obviously a total idiot.

Brew · #**118** 02-02-2005, 04:52 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Rabon:
40 years from now (if I live that long) I will be talking about my '04 whenever the subject of cars (and particularly muscle cars) comes up. Owning one has made me love the look so much that I don't want GM to change it in '07 (if that is the plan). Owning one has also made me know for certain that it is well worthy of the iconic name. I think that is similar to how the original Pontiac GTO became an icon: owners flat-out enjoying their cars. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I guess we'll find out for sure in 2044!

red70goat · #**119** 02-02-2005, 04:54 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by TheWho:
red70goat, you remind me of my 14year old brother. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, I'm sure he's a good mentor for you.

Tripower455 · #**120** 02-02-2005, 05:03 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Brew:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tripower455:
[QUOTE]BTW, I'm curious as to how many of you new GTO owners currently own a classic GTO also. I know NickV does. How about the rest of you? Can you relate? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I own both, and can't relate to what you're saying.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>_Really? You expected the GTO to look and perform like it does? With no disappointments upon seeing the first pictures? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was dissapointed with the pictures, but, to be honest, I wasn't really expecting much. It looked a lot better in person, and once I drove it looked even better.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Nobody's debating practicallty! Like I said before, IMO there's no better value out there for the performance. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I guess you're right.... most of the naysayers aren't debating practicality. Heck, one of them thinks driving a '69 every day is practical.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Then you're not a "car guy", but an "old car guy", correct?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is there any other kind?

To me, the allure of the new GTO to me is that it's a new car, with the good features of an old car (V-8, RWD, Manual), which are rare nowadays.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>That guy is obviously a total idiot._

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wouldn't call him an idiot. He's actually quite knowledgable about many old cars, including GTOs. He's just not in tune with the new stuff, and wasn't really paying attention to it. FWIW, I stil have a hard time finding my '04 in a parking lot.