[Judge273]

Thread about HO vs RA IV vid... UTube pulled vid not sure why?

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=598447

[Formulajones]

Video doesn't work anymore, it's an old thread. But judging by the comments it sounds like an old "back in the day" video with no rules or regulations. Although it sounds neat we really can't base any facts from it as far as which is quicker.

There is only one form of racing today where these cars still compete and play under the same rules...........

We can google and put up all kinds of videos in this thread for those that care to see what's really going on. I think there are some HO lovers here that would hate to watch though

[Formulajones]

Okay I'll see if this will give you guys an idea without actually seeing it in person....

Here is a quick video of an SD formula running in pure stock. This is right on par with the other SD's and HO's I've seen running,,,like I mentioned they seem to peak right around high 12's at about 110 mph. Very respectable. Hand tight and I'll find an HO to compare,,,then we'll get into the ram air IV cars

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCJZf...yer_detailpage

[Formulajones]

Here's a good example of what the HO's are capable of. ET on this pass is slower than usual, it's not easy to hook up on these little bias ply's, but the MPH tells the story. It's making some steam and runs as good as any other HO I've seen there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=sffT2FVj1JY

[Formulajones]

Here is Bruno's ram air IV. He's been doing this a long time, and his son also races a couple of different ram air IV F-bodies.

This goat typically traps 114-115 mph and runs mid 12's.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfyvC...yer_detailpage

[Formulajones]

Here's another ram air IV putting a hemi on the trailer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZYZI...yer_detailpage

[Formulajones]

Here's a pair of ram air IV's. I'm pretty sure that's Glasgo's orbit orange judge,,,the bird I think may be Bruno's son.
Both cars appear to be down on mph evenly, so I'd bet the heat and/or DA is affecting the cars here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXoRL...yer_detailpage

[Judge273]

Since we are adding vids...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOMOmnDpAxk

[transam1972]

in the video just after the G.T.O. commercial is the Trans Am series race...in the beginning look close and you see a production 70 T/A blue sitting parked...cool stuff

[J GLASGO]

Originally Posted by trishieldchief

A 71-2 455 HO TA would be stronger on the street, in street block to street block racing ie 1/8 mile than a 70 RAIV TA.

In the 1/4 mile, the 455 HO TA will be out front ahead of RAIV TA for the first 1/8 mile then run down and passed by the 70 RAIV TA a little after 1/8th mile mark in a 1/4 mile drag race.

A RAIV needs deep gears and needs to be sitting on top of its camshaft at 6000 rpm to make power, all of which is happening at top end of the 1/4 mile drag strip.

Very good Rich! Have you done this before

[Jack Ferris]

Bottom line is, when somebody can come up with both cars in question, both built to OEM specs, not a car with every hidden trick in the cheaters handbook to run 1/4 mile times only, show up at the same track on the same day, running a series of runs side by side, then the true answer will present itself. Until then, and while the opinions and theory's have been great to read, I will believe it when I see it.

[Judge273]

Jack chances of finding a OEM stock 70 TA RA IV wanting a run in a 1/4 w/o tricks is slim...

[Jack Ferris]

Agreed. My 70 has OEM RAlV power but it is not a legit lV car. The only non GM parts in the motor are the flat TRW's and the cam is a Crane blueprint cam so its pretty close. Since its a RAlll car it has 3.55 gears. My good friend has a 72 but with a larger than stock cam and headers. Maybe he can put the stock cam in and manifolds on and we can put the heat on at our local track. May be as close as its going to get.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by Jack Ferris

Bottom line is, when somebody can come up with both cars in question, both built to OEM specs, not a car with every hidden trick in the cheaters handbook to run 1/4 mile times only, show up at the same track on the same day, running a series of runs side by side, then the true answer will present itself. Until then, and while the opinions and theory's have been great to read, I will believe it when I see it.

You're missing it Jack, In the grand scheme of things it really doesn't matter if there are tricks or cheaters, they are all playing under the same rules and using the same tricks

So in essence you are seeing comparable cars that are all utilizing the rules the same way. When you see several HO and SD cars all running nearly identical, and several ram air IV cars all running nearly identical, I'd say the rules work, and you are getting a real world idea, as good as it gets, on the same track, on the same day . The only other way to get it "as close as it gets" as you put it, would be to invent a time machine and grab a couple of new ones off the dealer lot. Otherwise anyones street car comparison will have no merit, there are no rules so it's no better than any other test that us gear heads want to throw together.

Besides, until you get your's in there and compete, you really can't accuse these guys of cheating or hidden tricks. These guys go through some "serious" tech, and it's not uncommon to send some of them packing if they don't follow the rules, I've seen it. Once through tech it's alot of driving technique as well, it's not the car doing all the work.
In all honesty those bias ply's aren't all that hard to hook up if track prep is decent, they actually work better than a radial tire. They have a much tighter tread package (less tread squirm) and really respond well to higher tire pressures (contrary to what some people might think).
In the end, these engines are just very well assembled and very well tuned examples of what we had 40 years ago. They only have a 1.5 allowable compression bump for obvious reasons. The rest is just blueprinting and attention to detail, and alot of time on the chassis dyno

[Jack Ferris]

Ok FJ, you see things your way, I'll see things mine. Points can be argued all day long. It's a good post and fun reading. That's where I'm leaving it.

[1971WARBIRD]

the neat thing is they were all good engines, and were Pontiac.
now what do you think about this? the RA IV was good as it was rolled out the door, beside some jetting, different converter, was there much more without porting, or boring it out?
now the 455HO, could have used a little more compression, but just adding 1.65 rockers to give it some more lift, helped loads. the 71's could be had with 3.73 gears, so maybe had a little more there than a stock RA IV with small tweaks?
one thing both engines needed were better tires as either could blow them off at will.

[Jack Ferris]

Originally Posted by 1971WARBIRD

the neat thing is they were all good engines, and were Pontiac.
now what do you think about this? the RA IV was good as it was rolled out the door, beside some jetting, different converter, was there much more without porting, or boring it out?
now the 455HO, could have used a little more compression, but just adding 1.65 rockers to give it some more lift, helped loads. the 71's could be had with 3.73 gears, so maybe had a little more there than a stock RA IV with small tweaks?
one thing both engines needed were better tires as either could blow them off at will.

I agree. 2 awesome engines that both made great power.

[71HOT/A]

What if you built what Pontiac probably would have if not for the new regulations. Take one 455 HO, raise the compression to about 10 to 1, add the IV cam and 1.65 rockers. Some SD rods to make it stay together and team this up with an m22 and 3.73 rear. Guess what, you would have a car that will run on today's gas, is more driver friendly than the IV and considerably faster.

[2manyT/A'S]

TRW actually offered a set of forged "domed" pistons for the HO & SD....but the domes need to be cut down.....

If installed out of the box....CR would be around 12:1

[Jack Peters]

It was on the 15 inch tires.
I left on a really squirrely run. I had not run at the strip. Only street. I missed when the light turned green and had to chase down the other guy. Spun badly through first gear so short shifted to second and ran the other guy down in second. Only 14:14 et. Pretty poor.
On the second run I missed second and floated the valves and still mph'd at almost 100. Still got the time slips.
So, the HO w/o the HO cam still made great power.