[64speed]

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

When I worked at the local Pontiac dealer in 1970 there was a RA IV block in the warranty pile that had a broken lifter bore in it. What I don't know is if the bore broke out with the hydraulic camshaft in it, or if it had the cam changed before the bore broke out of the block, and then they put the OEM cam and lifters back in to get it warrantied.

The guy that changed the fitted block out said it had the factory cam in it when it came in on the hook.

They had already put a sledge hammer through the water jacket, so it was completely scrap when I saw it. For anyone that isn't familiar with GM warranty, all warranty engines at that time were smacked with a sledge hammer while the factory rep was present to make certain the engine couldn't be used or sold after GM paid the warranty claim on it. In that case it was redundant with the lifter bore broken already.

Since seeing that lifter bore broken I have never seen another one broken, even though I used a solid roller cam in a few of my own engines without any bracing. Two 400s and a 455. The advertised spec on the cam was 320 degrees, by .525 lift, surely a mild cam by todays standards, but when I bought it used I was told the engine it came out of was a 60s era FED. I have no idea if there was any truth to that, or not. The 320 degrees advertised duration put the power band way up there, and it came with a rev kit.

Later I had it re-ground by Crower, somewhere in the 280 degree range, where it was much more streetable, especially behind a T400 with 4.33 gears. The first car it was in with 320 degrees of duration was a 65 GTO, 4 speed with a 3.90 axle. It would run 6500 no problem, until a keeper split and dropped a valve.

Yeah I know that block wasn’t salvageable but I know all about “destroy in store” from my days working at auto zone and advance Auto Parts in my teenage years. Took home a lot of “destroyed” items LOL

[djustice]

Just saw the T-37 episode myself, they actually put more effort into this one, put a timingligth to it and after a failed Quadrajet rebuild they put a new edelbrock carb on.
More than can be said for the roadkill garage boneville that just got hauled straigth on the road without fixing the motor mount (it did eventually get over complicated zip-tied to the crossmember motormount bolt holes lol)

[Greg Reid]

..Also, he said GTOs are "just okay, they're just Chevelles".

That's like saying a GTX is just a Coronet.

[unruhjonny]

Originally Posted by TCSGTO

Just caught the newest episode where they rescue a 71 T-37 with a 1970 400/4barrel that hadn’t run since the 80’s from a scrap yard in Idaho and road trip it to The Snake River canyon.
Frieburger even said it was the best rescue car they ever had. Very Pontiac friendly show. They even have a HEMI cut down at the end.

ok... I'll look up this episode - thanks for the "heads up"!

[shoebox1.1]

These motors have 4 bolts around each cylinder right? That’s a tiny flaw in my book

[242177P]

Originally Posted by shoebox1.1

These motors have 4 bolts around each cylinder right? That’s a tiny flaw in my book

I don't believe the actual number of headbolts is a flaw. SBC used five, but the clean sheet LS1 only used four. Maybe you don't like the bore spacing?

[ta man]

The thing I like about Frieburger is much of his chatter is what most car guys would say ..Anybody that has watched the Drag Week feed will get to see his true love for everything that has wheels and the people involved. At times I'd like to slap him in the head or say cheers bud!

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by shoebox1.1

These motors have 4 bolts around each cylinder right? That’s a tiny flaw in my book

When GM designed the LS engine, they eliminated the 17 bolts that were used in the SBC, in favor of the 4 bolts per cylinder, 10 bolts per head, same as the Pontiac Stratostreak engine uses. Both engines were to be used in production cars and trucks. GM deemed 4 bolts per cylinder as adequate in production engines, same as Pontiac engineers did in the early 50s when the Stratostreak engine was designed.

GM did add a provision on the later LS performance engines to add more head bolts per cylinder, however these were to be used in performance applications, (such as forced induction) not designed for daily driver duty.

Through the ages many 4 bolt per cylinder fasteners have been used, and when this design is used the fasteners are upsized high quality fasteners. The deck of the 4 bolt per cylinder head is usually thicker to have a stiffer sealing surface than other designs. The block deck is also thicker/stiffer in the sealing surface.

[shoebox1.1]

I hear ya on all points.. in my 35 years of hot rodding it always seems the 4 bolt per cyl engines are a lil more head gasket blowing capable that the others. Small Windsor for example ( and my buddy’s 455) recently

[moontower69]

Great episode.

Its like magically Frieburger responded to all our concerns about marginalizing Pontiacs as muscle cars and carelessly thrashing junkyard engines (without changing oil or priming it).

He also finally showed some real affection (perhaps LOVE?) for "Ponchos" - he's even using the affectionate nickname now - wow, what a change.

I also like how they honestly talk about cars and tinkering. Honest but funny. "It'll buff out". "It runs perfectly"

He probably likes that T-37 is a sleeper GTO w low production (he was bummed that it was a column shift model but that can be changed!)

I bet in a future episode they'll put a 455 in it (maybe a Buick 455 since he loves those) and get it into the 11s or maybe even do an off road version like the Challenger with big off-road tires in volcano episode.

Its the only show that's fun to watch and doesn't make you wonder why the hosts are so awkward and not natural. These guys are just being themselves. Roadkill garage with Lucky and Tony Angelo is also pretty good. And Dirt Everyday is usually solid too, a little slow but solid guys that know their off road trucks well and can build just about anything with their own 2 hands.

[Dragncar]

Pontiac 2 bolt blocks are good to 600HP as is. 4 bolt blocks, or 2 bolt blocks with aftermarket 4 bolt caps are good to around 700-750 HP. The BBC and BBF blocks are good to about the same power. Maybe a tad more.
The factory blocks are all useful to about the same HP levels.
Do I wish PMD blocks had solid lifter area, sure. Thicker main webbing, yes. But the use of cast rods killed more Pontiac blocks than anything else.

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by shoebox1.1

I hear ya on all points.. in my 35 years of hot rodding it always seems the 4 bolt per cyl engines are a lil more head gasket blowing capable that the others. Small Windsor for example ( and my buddy’s 455) recently

That statement makes me laugh, I've been turning wrenches most of my adult life for a profession. I've changed a lot more SBC headgaskets that were blown than Pontiac. Only one Pontiac gasket in all that time and dozens of SBC gaskets that were blown.

As I said the engineering has to be correct for the 4 bolt per cylinder to work efficiently, Pontiac engineers got it right from the first design and even though bean counters and fuel mileage requirements lead to cheapening of the castings, the engineers seemed to have left enough heft to keep the head gaskets intact.

The worst GM division for blown headgaskets by far is Buick, in everything they made and designed, V8s and V6s had headgasket problems for many years. Working in a buick dealership it wasn't unheard of to have both of my bays with headgasket jobs...……………….....

Buick also used 4 bolts per cylinder, and they didn't get it right, not even close.

Olds used 4 bolts per cylinder and as far as gasoline engines they got it right, when the designed their diesel based on the same architecture it was flawed, however doubling the compression ration from 10.5 to 22 to one probably had something to do with that. Even though the increased the bolt size they still wanted to leak. I changed a few 5.7 diesel gaskets back in the day.

From your screen name I'd hazard a guess you're a chevy guy, lots of misinformation that circulates about why some feel chevy has a superior engine over other brands. Most of this circulates around the fact that GM made millions of them and they are dirt cheap to buy new and used parts for them. Superior engineering or manufacturing isn't the main reason for their popularity. Without the aftermarket the chevy would be severely handicapped if owners relied strictly on GM factory parts, as Pontiac enthusiasts did for so many years.

If chevy quit producing their own division engines in 1978, or 1981, (depending who you ask) as Pontiac did, I doubt there would be the following that Pontiac has sustained over roughly 40 years.

[pastry_chef]

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

I doubt there would be the following that Pontiac has sustained over roughly 40 years.

For certain there would! The engines only sit within the cars. Corvette, Camaro, Chevelle etc. How many were sold?

Pontiac remains for the same reason. Desirable cars sold with the engines.

[Sirrotica]

Instead of quoting one sentence, you changed what I said completely by not quoting all of the thought. It went like this:

From your screen name I'd hazard a guess you're a chevy guy, lots of misinformation that circulates about why some feel chevy has a superior engine over other brands. Most of this circulates around the fact that GM made millions of them and they are dirt cheap to buy new and used parts for them. Superior engineering or manufacturing isn't the main reason for their popularity. Without the aftermarket the chevy would be severely handicapped if owners relied strictly on GM factory parts, as Pontiac enthusiasts did for so many years.

If chevy quit producing their own division engines in 1978, or 1981, (depending who you ask) as Pontiac did, I doubt there would be the following that Pontiac has sustained over roughly 40 years.

Just taking one sentence out of 2 paragraphs doesn't convey my thoughts, but it works for you, didn't it?

So 40 years ago chevy stops making engines, with little to no aftermarket support, they continue to thrive and survive, as though nothing happened?

As Joe Biden would say, "C'mon man!!!"

I've been around Pontiac people all my life, you'd be hard pressed to find a more loyal bunch of car owners devoted to one brand.

I'm done with the comparison. If you don't believe it, that's fine with me, I'm not dwelling on it anymore.

[455Grandville]

Originally Posted by shoebox1.1

These motors have 4 bolts around each cylinder right? That’s a tiny flaw in my book

So do many Diesel engines that hold together fine.

[shoebox1.1]

Didn’t mean to ruffle the Internet feathers here nor am I knocking Pontiac motors! I have had several chevys yes and several mopars too! My 11 to 1 4.3L v6 on e85,20 psi of boost at 30 deg total didn’t woof one lol. I’m here to learn more about these motors and am going to stick with Pontiac from here on out. I’ve had a couple ponchos but nothing with performance. My comments were from the mindset that if you have a circle... and big explosions happen inside the circle... 5 bolt holes around the perimeter is stronger than 4 I don’t care who you are or what you say!

[shoebox1.1]

Didn’t mean to ruffle the Internet feathers here nor am I knocking Pontiac motors! I have had several chevys yes and several mopars too! My 11 to 1 4.3L v6 on e85,20 psi of boost at 30 deg total didn’t woof one lol. I’m here to learn more about these motors and am going to stick with Pontiac from here on out. I’ve had a couple ponchos but nothing with performance. My comments were from the mindset that if you have a circle... and big explosions happen inside the circle... 5 bolt holes around the perimeter is stronger than 4 I don’t care who you are or what you say!

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by shoebox1.1

Didn’t mean to ruffle the Internet feathers here nor am I knocking Pontiac motors! I have had several chevys yes and several mopars too! My 11 to 1 4.3L v6 on e85,20 psi of boost at 30 deg total didn’t woof one lol. I’m here to learn more about these motors and am going to stick with Pontiac from here on out. I’ve had a couple ponchos but nothing with performance. My comments were from the mindset that if you have a circle... and big explosions happen inside the circle... 5 bolt holes around the perimeter is stronger than 4 I don’t care who you are or what you say!

I'm switching to Briggs and Stratton for sure, they have 8 head bolts per cylinder. LMAO...………….

[shoebox1.1]

Bulletproof engine.. only ruined by drunken idiots hitting roots bending cranks! HA!

[pastry_chef]

Originally Posted by shoebox1.1

5 bolt holes around the perimeter is stronger than 4!

Yes, why the very high HP N/A Pontiac's have finite runs on their head gaskets. Langer has found ways to delay the issue but still.