[TRADERMIKE 2012]

More photos to come...

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

More photos to come...

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

One more picture of the Cylinder Bore measured @ the top, middle and bottom of each Cylinder. We measured the approx. Stroke and the legend depicts the Head Bolts, Coolant passage open and closed with a plug. The closed ones mean that someone has been into these Heads doing the Pontiac water Jacket mod. I think. The Head Gaskets look like they were installed in 1968, one year after the Motor was cast from the factory. We on the PY forum believe that this motor was modified after the original sale, we don't know if the Engine was ever installed in a Vehicle or not. Since I have additional #'s and letters scribed into the pass. side left Head area in front, conscientious is that the owner at that time purchased over- the- counter, the Tri-power Intake Manifold and Carbs., plus Installed the 1956 Tri-power Cam as the racers would do in those days. Since the 1967 Pontiac 428 ci Engine should have the Quadra jet Carb. and the 4bbl Intake Manifold plus the 066, 067 or 068 type Cam. I was told upon buying this 1967 Pontiac TA with the 1967 Tri-power 428 ci HO engine was taken out of a wrecked truck that went over a mountain in the Carolinas while Bootleggers were on the job.

P.S. I don't see any water passages that are closed off on the Heads, perhaps all the necessary work was done at the Block, if that is at all possible? I need some research on this point. Someone knew what they were doing with this particular Engine, perhaps a race car drive? Otherwise, how did this Motor end up shining?

[400 Lemans]

I don't see any water passage mods in your block pics. Looks like any other Pontiac, stock block setup.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by 400 Lemans

I don't see any water passage mods in your block pics. Looks like any other Pontiac, stock block setup.

I just got through looking at STEVE BARCAK mod and 1A2 Block cooling holes and 421 style cooling holes, I see that the 421 mod holes are not in the Head nor the Block. There are additional 3 holes that I would have to plug in the Block per side, I see that the factory did close 4 holes per side on the Block on mine. Plus, I need to drill the holes in the Block and heads between the two exhaust valves.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by TRADERMIKE 2012

I just got through looking at STEVE BARCAK mod and 1A2 Block cooling holes and 421 style cooling holes, I see that the 421 mod holes are not in the Head nor the Block. There are additional 3 holes that I would have to plug in the Block per side, I see that the factory did close 4 holes per side on the Block on mine. Plus, I need to drill the holes in the Block and heads between the two exhaust valves.

This is a picture I drew of the Pontiac cooling Mod. that I found on this forum, I have drawn it in the pink marker, I am seriously thinking of incorporating this modification as I have the Heads remanufactured. My roommate and I are Leary about doing any other work than sealing off the exhaust crossovers at this time and we need to degree wheel the cam. Since I don't have the crossover exhaust "X" and the vehicle always ran without it tells me that I don't have to add one if I just go back the way it was.

It is noted that the 80 degrees of overlap with these "041" cams is a lot of OL. However, I can always buy a set of Roads Lifters and 1.6:1 Rockers later, again this car ran with the Johnson lifters in the past. we think that the 80 degrees OL having the Intake and Exhaust Valves open for that duration coupled with holes in the exhaust crossovers in the Head, plus, lack of proper mufflers and having the 2-1/2" Exhaust Pipes running some 10' to the Diffuser could cause this noise, that I never had, except on several recent test and tunes.

We are willing to take our chances, as we always have, to do what we think will work, the worst-case scenario is that we have to go back into this motor. At this time, I feel that the Pistons being reversed did not cause this issue, so why would I touch them at this time? This motor is strong at the bottom and if it is not broken don't fix it. Someone knew what they were doing when they modified this motor. Although the factory does things for a reason, so do the racers. Since no one has explained to me why the crossovers "X" is installed, after the collectors makes it hard for me to make my decision. " Why do people use an "X" type crossover abaft of the collectors"? Note: this vehicle has been running less that 10 k miles since I got it running, with the Exhaust system going from the Headers to the collectors and Streight out to the diffuser, with no problem ever. I have very few miles on this "041" Cam and I had installed it with the advanced timing just prior to the Transmission accident, thus this Cam could have something to do with the current noise issue?
Because I had the vehicle off the road for 2 years building the Trans. So, People who are telling me that I must use the Roads Lifters, I ask is this current noise the product of 80 degrees overlap, because if that is what you mean by saying, get Roads Lifters than I have to agree with you people. Please bear with me as I learn something, this is out of my league. Believe me, for those of you who are steering me toward the piston change that won't solve the current issue, duly noted. After I squeeze the life out of the bottom end of the motor, then I will rebuild this motor, as stock using new Rings and all new Bearings. This engine already has had all the other replaceable parts installed, then sell it to someone that needs a Pontiac YK code 428 HO with Tri-powers and I will buy a modern Engine like one of those 1AII with Aluminum Heads and all the goodies.

[Cliff R]

No, you can NOT press or drive the pins out of the pistons at home with a punch and a BFH. This requires a press and piston holding fixture to keep from destroying the pistons. Even with a "cradle" under them sometimes they still get damaged and need replaced.

Two things. Since the engine needs all this work, pull it out of the vehicle and put it on an engine stand. It takes about an hour to pull it, then minutes to take it all apart and find out what' s going on wit h the rods and pistons. They may simply be installed backwards in the block and you can move them to the other bank and the notches will now be facing the correct way, plus the offset wil improve ring seal as it side-loads the pistons as the engineers intended.

Doing all this work laying over the fenders is at least 10 times MORE diffciult, and now you need to jack it up and pull the oil pan to get the pistons out. At that point it's 85 percent out anyhow, so just go ahead and pull it out the rest of the way so you can effectively clean everything up before putting it back together........FWIW......

[track73]

I would try Rhodes lifters. The best of both worlds., plus an easy fix..

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by track73

I would try Rhodes lifters. The best of both worlds., plus an easy fix..

Please send me a video clip of your motor with the road's lifters, so I can determine whether or not I can stand the different noise they incur!

[track73]

Originally Posted by TRADERMIKE 2012

Please send me a video clip of your motor with the road's lifters, so I can determine whether or not I can stand the different noise they incur!

I'm not sure a video clip will give the responce you need. All I can say is that in the car you can't notice. And my mufflers probably drown out the noise any way. With the hood 's open it just sounds like an engine with solid lifters.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by track73

I'm not sure a video clip will give the responce you need. All I can say is that in the car you can't notice. And my mufflers probably drown out the noise any way. With the hood 's open it just sounds like an engine with solid lifters.

Agree, people need to get over this noise thing they have. More than a few here have expressed concern running Rhoads for fear of the ticking noises they make. I never quite understood that coming from old school hard core car guys (how I grew up) Lifters ticking just meant you had a hot engine under the hood (and I don't mean temperature)

Quite frankly, with the hood shut and driving you really can't even hear the loudest of the solid lifter camshafts, and todays profiles with their tight lash lobes are so quiet it's like it's not even there.

The new Rhoads lifters are much the same, they can be lashed fairly snug to a point they don't really make noise you can hear when using the car and going about your business.

[JSchmitz]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

I never quite understood that coming from old school hard core car guys (how I grew up) Lifters ticking just meant you had a hot engine under the hood (and I don't mean temperature)

Add me to the list of misunderstood old school car guys. Ticking to me always meant that something was misadjusted or broken. I appreciate what Rhoads lifters do. No thanks for me. I'll make adjustments, or sacrifices, elsewhere to have a quiet engine. My $.02

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

Agree, people need to get over this noise thing they have. More than a few here have expressed concern running Rhoads for fear of the ticking noises they make. I never quite understood that coming from old school hard core car guys (how I grew up) Lifters ticking just meant you had a hot engine under the hood (and I don't mean temperature)

Quite frankly, with the hood shut and driving you really can't even hear the loudest of the solid lifter camshafts, and todays profiles with their tight lash lobes are so quiet it's like it's not even there.

The new Rhoads lifters are much the same, they can be lashed fairly snug to a point they don't really make noise you can hear when using the car and going about your business.

Thank you for that input, I will keep that in mind, it sounds more bearable now. What is your input on possible reverb noise that I experienced twice?

[78w72]

Connecting 4" dryer hose to 2.5" exhaust pipes wont cause any problems with back pressure, its almost 2x bigger than the factory exhaust pipes, mechanics/shops use extension hoses on the exhaust like that all the time during the winter months when they need to run an engine inside the shop... nor will it blow out exhaust crossover filling from reverberation. block off plates are known to get blown out just from the normal exhaust gases over time.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by 78w72

Connecting 4" dryer hose to 2.5" exhaust pipes won't cause any problems with back pressure, it's almost 2x bigger than the factory exhaust pipes, mechanics/shops use extension hoses on the exhaust like that all the time during the winter months when they need to run an engine inside the shop... nor will it blow out exhaust crossover filling from reverberation. block off plates are known to get blown out just from the normal exhaust gases over time.

Good to know on one end bad on the other, might mean I have another problem.

I will ask this: Since after taping and sealing the connection from the Exhaust tips to the 4" metal dryer hose, we eventually heard the Engine make a different sound and when we added an additional rubber to plastic material from a lawn type blower to the end of the metal hose about another 6', the diameter was greater, than that of the 4" metal hose and that was also taped together using metal duct tape as well. Combined 16' approx. length made a change in motor sound, I quickly stopped this procedure, I originally thought that I may have disturbed the Exhaust Valve seals? Note: I had replaced the Valve seals within 10 k miles that I put on this second-hand project. It is unknown what the full mileage is on this engine?

So, could you explain to me "what the difference in motor sound" occurred while I had the dryer hose attachment installed and why I all of a sudden heard a different sound that doesn't belong after test driving this vehicle on the road, without yet discovering the holes in the crossover plugs?

[78w72]

Originally Posted by TRADERMIKE 2012

Good to know on one end bad on the other, might mean I have another problem.

I will ask this: Since after taping and sealing the connection from the Exhaust tips to the 4" metal dryer hose, we eventually heard the Engine make a different sound and when we added an additional rubber to plastic material from a lawn type blower to the end of the metal hose about another 6', the diameter was greater, than that of the 4" metal hose and that was also taped together using metal duct tape as well. Combined 16' approx. length made a change in motor sound, I quickly stopped this procedure, I originally thought that I may have disturbed the Exhaust Valve seals? Note: I had replaced the Valve seals within 10 k miles that I put on this second-hand project. It is unknown what the full mileage is on this engine?

So, could you explain to me "what the difference in motor sound" occurred while I had the dryer hose attachment installed and why I all of a sudden heard a different sound that doesn't belong after test driving this vehicle on the road, without yet discovering the holes in the crossover plugs?

Unfortunately I can not explain the difference in sound after using 4"+ hose, but Im 99% sure it is not what caused this noise you describe... shops use that same size tubing in the winters and dyno rooms have exhaust tube running the same type of length to exit the building, they run very high RPMs on high power engines and never had reverberation problems from it. 4" tube did not blow out your block offs or disturb the exhaust seals.

Also just a question to others regarding the swapping pistons to the other bank thing... wont that cause a problem with rings sealing if they are in different positions? Or do the rings stay in the same cylinders but get swapped on the pistons. Just trying to clarify & understand this for myself & anyone that may do it... the way its worded some may just swap the rings too & that cant be a good thing.

And Ive mentioned this before on other threads about the cooling mods on this car... how do all the other hot rods in florida or texas or arizona drive around without all these mods, most with a lot more power? These cars when new didnt have anything beyond the factory stuff and they lasted for 80k+ miles, then got rebuilt & went another 80k+. Something else if off on the engine or tune if it runs that hot & requires all those mods, some ive never heard of, side kick radiators, mouse pad material wrapped in foil tape etc etc.

Hope you can figure out the issues, listening to others on here that have much higher power engines running nice & cool would be the best approach.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by 78w72

Unfortunately I cannot explain the difference in sound after using 4"+ hose, but I'm 99% sure it is not what caused this noise you describe... shops use that same size tubing in the winters and dyno rooms have exhaust tube running the same type of length to exit the building, they run very high RPMs on high power engines and never had reverberation problems from it. 4" tube did not blow out your block offs or disturb the exhaust seals.

Also, just a question to others regarding the swapping of pistons for the other bank thing... won't that cause a problem with rings sealing if they are in different positions? Or do the rings stay in the same cylinders but get swapped on the pistons? Just trying to clarify & understand this for myself & anyone that may do it... the way it's worded some may just swap the rings too & that can't be a good thing.

And I've mentioned this before on other threads about the cooling mods on this car... how do all the other hot rods in Florida or Texas or Arizona drive around without all these mods, most with a lot more power? These cars when new didn't have anything beyond the factory stuff and they lasted for 80k+ miles, then got rebuilt & went another 80k+. Something else if off on the engine or tune if it runs that hot & requires all those mods, some I've never heard of a side kick- radiators, mouse pad material wrapped in foil tape etc etc.

Hope you can figure out the issues, listening to others on here that have much higher power engines running nice & cool would be the best approach.

I learned about the Side-kick from forums, just like the Pontiac mod to the water pump and now the drill and plug trick. How much more can I do but try and experiment as others have done before me? This is a learning process and it has been 2 steps forward and 3 steps back. I just rebuilt a TH 400 Trans, successfully I might add, I was told by a Transmission specialist that auto mechanics bring their trans. in to me. Give me some positive credit for a Novis I am, let me grow in knowledge.

I am running at 190 degrees without the AC on. When I turn on the AC on the highway it is 200 degrees. Around town in traffic with the AC running, I am at 210-220 degrees. I don't vapor lock on rec-89-90 anymore. Is that a safe temp? I use the extra fans only with the AC. The reason I am looking into the Pontiac cooling mod. is that it is the best mod. according to people who have actually done it. I could stay away from this mod. but I am always looking for improvement. Since I have the heads off it is the perfect opportunity to try something new. What if it lowers the engine temp. ,like they say. It seems to make sense over all the jury rigging I have been doing over the past 10 years, I am only sorry I did not learn about it 10 years ago, so I could have done it first, savvy.

You said: Also, just a question to others regarding the swapping of pistons for the other bank thing... won't that cause a problem with rings sealing if they are in different positions? Or do the rings stay in the same cylinders but get swapped on the pistons?

Mikes reply: Good question, I second that?

I have been rationalizing over this noise and that is the best I can come up with because I noticed the difference right away. Then I Test and tune and find the exhaust crossover has holes in them, that is not helping. I think the fact that I have no cross after the collectors has everything to do with this vibration or reverb? Why do people put the crossover "X" after the collectors anyway, if it were not necessary? I only experienced this weird noise twice, once with the exhaust extension and now testing and tuning with crossover holes.

I wish I could prove it. I can live with the pistons being backwards, since the racers did it for a reason. My only choice is to either take my chance that I diagnosed the noise already and put the motor back together with the rebuilt Heads. Secondary, keep taking it apart. I have not found anything to warrant more disassembly other than the Pistons installed with the notch toward the rear and to find out that it was done on purpose, tells me I am on the right track.

My deduction is reverb, pulses bouncing under the Intake Manifold then to the defuser and back, with no cross "X" to equalize the echoing nor any mufflers in-between to do their job. I am not an expert on Exhaust systems, but I trust my own intuition, it has gotten me this far.

[78w72]

Originally Posted by TRADERMIKE 2012

I learned about the Side-kick from forums, just like the Pontiac mod to the water pump and now the drill and plug trick. How much more can I do but try and experiment as others have done before me? This is a learning process and it has been 2 steps forward and 3 steps back. I just rebuilt a TH 400 Trans, successfully I might add, I was told by a Transmission specialist that auto mechanics bring their trans. in to me. Give me some positive credit for a Novis I am, let me grow in knowledge.

I am running at 190 degrees without the AC on. When I turn on the AC on the highway it is 200 degrees. Around town in traffic with the AC running, I am at 210-220 degrees. I don't vapor lock on rec-89-90 anymore. Is that a safe temp? I use the extra fans only with the AC. The reason I am looking into the Pontiac cooling mod. is that it is the best mod. according to people who have actually done it. I could stay away from this mod. but I am always looking for improvement. Since I have the heads off it is the perfect opportunity to try something new. What if it lowers the engine temp. ,like they say. It seems to make sense over all the jury rigging I have been doing over the past 10 years, I am only sorry I did not learn about it 10 years ago, so I could have done it first, savvy.

You said: Also, just a question to others regarding the swapping of pistons for the other bank thing... won't that cause a problem with rings sealing if they are in different positions? Or do the rings stay in the same cylinders but get swapped on the pistons?

Mikes reply: Good question, I second that?

I have been rationalizing over this noise and that is the best I can come up with because I noticed the difference right away. Then I Test and tune and find the exhaust crossover has holes in them, that is not helping. I think the fact that I have no cross after the collectors has everything to do with this vibration or reverb? Why do people put the crossover "X" after the collectors anyway, if it were not necessary? I only experienced this weird noise twice, once with the exhaust extension and now testing and tuning with crossover holes.

I wish I could prove it. I can live with the pistons being backwards, since the racers did it for a reason. My only choice is to either take my chance that I diagnosed the noise already and put the motor back together with the rebuilt Heads. Secondary, keep taking it apart. I have not found anything to warrant more disassembly other than the Pistons installed with the notch toward the rear and to find out that it was done on purpose, tells me I am on the right track.

My deduction is reverb, pulses bouncing under the Intake Manifold then to the defuser and back, with no cross "X" to equalize the echoing nor any mufflers in-between to do their job. I am not an expert on Exhaust systems, but I trust my own intuition, it has gotten me this far.

Thats awesome you rebuilt the trans, was just mentioning all the mods on the car to get it to run without overheating, some seemed rather involved but if thats what is needed thats your call. Those are safe temps, 220 is approaching overheating but some idiot light cars didnt come on until hotter than that.

An X or H crossover pipe is to help scavenging of exhaust gasses, it doesnt really reduce flow restriction. Also, as exhaust gases cool they dont need as much space, at the rear of the car going to more than double the size with the dryer duct, you did not harm anything related to the exhaust. The holes in the heads exhaust crossover block off could have and probably were there before you think.

I have no suggestion on the noise you heard, could be many things, almost impossible to diagnose things like that over the internet, a video when running would be the only real way to make a long distance guess. When the exhaust crossover is open as designed with full reverb potential, it doesnt cause any noises in the engine or exhaust Im aware of, I have had many pontiac cars with that open. Just a suggestion the noise may be unrelated to your deduction.

[track73]

I would try Rhodes lifters. The best of both worlds., plus an easy fix..

[Skip Fix]

My first 455 with the RAIV heads the machinist swapped the pistons on purpose. He was an old Pontiac NHRA Stocker and felt that helped make a little more power.