[sawyer]

The implied VIN swap makes me sick. Where are the ebay police?

[dr-doug]

Several people were talking about a donor shell in this thread last year...what is the difference from what this guy is proposing, obviously more than one person is going to disagree with me here.
You couldn't go to a pontiac dealership and buy a "donor shell". VIN swaping is VIN swaping pure and simple, and if I'm not mistaken a felony nationwide.
It's a shame the RAM IV car was "unrestorable" and cut up...agreed..huh.....Now we can see why he went about selling the car the way he did last year, the lesser the number of people who know about the actual VIN the better for the seller and buyer
That car died. There is now potentially 57 auto IV's out there. But it does look like there is a NOM avilable for the 57.
If your name ends up on the bidder list of that auction you have larger nuts than I.
What is for sale in that auction is the goods to build a very convincing Ram IV clone....But we all know that sometime in the future what is created will not be represented as a clone, and some poor Jay Leno wannabe will own a Judge, that at one time, as the BOSS said, could fit in a baggy.

If this is not illegal, I stand corrected, but it sure as hell is immoral and a fraud.

I'll shut up now..DW

[Steve Hoog]

I'll agree with you DW

[Judge273]

Don't crush 'em... restore 'em. You guys are purist?

[Steve Hoog]

Since I have a perfectly intact 69 in my garage, I am a purist. Let them die when they are too far gone, I've always felt that way.

And then Doug said this "but it sure as hell is immoral and a fraud".

I couldn't agree more.

[tom s]

JMO,restoring is NOT rebodying!The value of you car is the rareity,there 697 69 T/As,not 698.Same thing goes for GTOs and Judges.Tom

[Todd Kozak]

Please, Mr. Moderator, lock this f$#%^'g thread!!!!!

[Bermuda Blue]

why lock this thread?

I'm hoping the VIN in question is revealed so we, and those who may have an interest in buying the car, will know what the car really is.

[Todd Kozak]

Everyone can banter day and night on the 'body swap' issue with no real results. This forum is 'Judges Tech' not 'Restoration Ethics'. We know its a slimy deal.We know the issue polarizes all of us in the hobby. We know there is no real resolution. Lock it up like the Pandoras Box it really is.

[The Boss]

Steve, good to see you back, where've you been?

Sad thing is, these cars are so rare, it's really hard to hide them. You can log in under another name and try to sell the same car, but there are only so many around and most of us know where they are. Too bad there wasn't a frame, or even a cowl - then it might be legal.

[Steve Hoog]

Boss man

Had a new son born back in late 02.25.06 and as you might know, been neck deep in dad detail. Things are easing up now and I'm ready for some action.

I see what Mr. Wankers is saying, but I am drawn to the complete humor that Mr. Moutainlife injects in this thread. Yes the points about are mundane, but we all need a little entertainment.

[The Boss]

Congratulations - wonderful thing.

Tried to pick up a delete plate for you a few weeks back but SWEETJUDGE sniped me on it!

Life can't be all Pontiacs - have to go tuck my two kids in - later.

[Steve Hoog]

Yeah I saw that plate, I think it was Don. Like the guy that bought it; he will be up to his *** trying to make it presentable, as I would have been. I know there must be a way, because I have seen two immaculate pieces on show cars. But it didn't entice me.

[Diesel]

You've got the wrong car or person there guys, I think you're talking about 2 different cars. The ebay cars are mine. Don't care what your personal beliefs are, everyone has an opinion, doesn't mean you are right no matter how passionate about it you are. Bottom line is I believe in saving them, crushing them is a shame and just plain wrong. If you have any metal in your "original car" that did not come with it originally then you need to diclose your car as a fake, a clone or a rebody it's simply not factory right? WRONG... Hopefully a true collector who loves these cars picks it up and does the car justice and does it right to the T, and we save this amazing goat.

I tried to get that delete too i got sniped as well!

and congrats on the son Steve children are a wonderful blessing in life.

And wow Dr. Doug you were so interested on the phone it's mind boggling to read your post, since you were so seriously considering it.

[Steve Hoog]

Let me make myself clear.

I am not picking on any particular car. I saw this current Ebay auction listed but personally did not have enough imformation to tie it to the past history of this thread.

The act; that I feel is absolutely wrong, is cutting off the tags of a basically ruined "rare" car and rivoting them on a donner full rear clip type body of a lesser optioned car. Which is what I thought Doug was referring to in his post. Though he may have pointed to or suggested that was the case with the current Ebay auction or the past discussed vehicle of Mr. Mountain; I was not sure.

I just went back a re read Doug's post. As someone suggested that this was Moutain's car again; and is past (speculation or disclosure?) that it was retag, I suppose Doug assumed or knows that to be the case and were or is the same car on the current Ebay auction.

Further more I would like to add that as soon as Mr. Mountain comes back into this thread, we will all once again be complete morons. Which is my interest and entertainment of this thread. IMO.

[JLHarper]

I have been thinking about this (and admitt I dont know the legal aspect of VIN swapping in my state as I never needed to) but what if a owner had a car that was beyond repair and he wanted to "restore". Wouldnt a donor "body" swapped to match the OLD one with OLD VIN plate put back on be the same? A GM BODY is a GM BODY, who counts the options on a set of fenders we buy, or even front clip? No one. Its just a GM part, same as body. It had a part number from GM. If a person can replace quarters, trunk pans, fenders, floors, (even cut and weld on roofs I saw on a few) are these cars also not basically "rebodied" anyway following this logic? They are not original in the sense that these parts didnt come on the car so why wouldnt putting a "complete" body with all the same parts be the same? Is the "issue" to remove a VIN plate and reattach it to a different body? Where legal.Or, are we only talking about VIN swapping where it makes the car something it didnt come off the line as? I can say 100% against that...but making your car back to what it was from the factory with used parts...thats what we do right? Again, not the legal issue here as I dont know..but the collector aspect of re-bodying.
If the VIN plate has numbers (legal reg to you) and FRAME has numbers and you have everything you need, driveline ect. except rusted damaged body but you found exact same body (38,000 + A bods GTOs made in 70 for example) and restored it with donor body and didnt change anything (?).
Is a legally owned/optioned re-bodied car worth less than one that has majority aftermarket or used parts welded back in place?
I am not for or against this practice (unless illegal and changing options for sure) at this point and trying to see both sides.

Guess this leads to us having to find frame VIN # as well (big pain I admitt)

Has anyone ever been able to see frame nu. while body on car? Like with mirror? I never could even find them on my cars while on lift and I have general area narrowed down.

[allmycarsrjunk]

I don't have a dog in this fight, but let me take a guess here, as to how many people would throw out a set of Ram Air IV Judge tags or maybe a set of Ram Air IV convertible tags. Let's assume the car is complete junk. You have them in your hands, a set of 1970 Ram Air IV Judge convertible tags..... or maybe a set of 1971 Hemi Cuda convertible tags. What would you do? I think everyone who is not a stinking liar knows the answer.

[Judge273]

I'm a purist too. I like pure Pontiacs! Nothing gets my blood pumping like a correctly restored roundport car, and most car have had some kind of restoration done. I could care less if the firewall was replaced as long as it is the correct firewall. Never saw a NOS firewall for sale. Have you?

[1969 Ram Air]

Isn't Goodmark reproducing 69 Camaro bodies now?

[JLHarper]

I think they have unique serial numbers, visual features dont they? More of a KIT car I think when finsihed with all new parts (crate motors running gear ect.

I know that sales were delayed due to GMs legal issues with resto shop people putting BOWTIE or CAMARO badging on them for the HOT ROD article I heard, so assume they dont want the GM VIN plates put on either. Its not a GM body so I guess this is their point. IMO.