[Andre]

RZREKTD- I appreciate you for understanding my attempt at humor.

Happy New Year to everyone following this thread. I'm hoping to have some more information to report soon.

This weekend is the Kruse Auction. That should be quite interesting. This is not as high end as the Barrett Jackson auction, but there might be affordable cars out there. I'll be there as a spectator only.

[Tripower455]

Originally Posted by rzrektd

Andre,

I am sorry that I had difficulty telling when you are serious and when you are joking. It upsets me when people take credit for the work they didn't do or if they swapped vins. I was willing to give you benifit of the doubt and keep my mouth shut on the vin swap but you stuck me deep with your joke that was written serious in nature. Swapped vin or not, your car built is the best I have seen in a while. And I gave you credit on this.




mrrat1, 68addict, tripower455,and Pecos,

You'll get mail from me.

LOL.......

[rzrektd]

Originally Posted by Tripower455

LOL.......

keep it in the pm's. What gives? You tell me to get a life and you don't appreciate my posts yet you continue on here and in PMs?????

[Tripower455]

Originally Posted by rzrektd

keep it in the pm's. What gives? You tell me to get a life and you don't appreciate my posts yet you continue on here and in PMs?????

You tell me...... you're the one who's all upset over nothing.......

Oh, and LOL......

[rzrektd]

Originally Posted by Tripower455

You tell me...... you're the one who's all upset over nothing.......

Oh, and LOL......

Who said I was upset? Did I tell you this?

Let me tell you this.
I just love how you, and an uninvolved parties just come on here and tell me to get a life or that I am way out of line. I really find in it interesting that I am shunned for calling out Andre on weather his car is Vin swapped. He accepts my opinions. The rest of the peanut gallery on this site decides to jump down my throat about this by saying I am way out of line and that I am accusing him of something he didn't do. What is especially interesting is that Andre did not speak any of this but accepted my opinions. Well that's fine. What is not fine that you and the rest attempt discredit me because those who are calling me out, saying I have no evidence. I think you and the others that think I am full of it don't know your rear from a hole in the ground when it comes to looking at a 66 GTO. The amusing part of this is you can tell there are two bodies involved in this restoration using a technique called comparison. Something I learned before I was out of Kindergarten. I think my problem may be that I am willing to stick my head out when the rest of you follow the masses and just act like a dog afraid to be beaten or that you don't care that a fellow Pontiac Hobbyist may someday have a quick one pulled on him/her. Whichever it is, I really don't care to have earned your pathetic excuse for respect. It is more along the lines of something I don't want to step in.

I am out of line accusing Andre of a vin swap when he has stated in other threads:
"I have an absolutely mint frame from a '66 Lemans 2 door hardtop that just came from California. I'm using the body, but I'd be willing to sell the frame bare, or as a roller."

And:

"I bought a great 66 Lemans shell to salvage the body from. I'll use repo fenders, doors, nose, hood, interior, wood wheel, valve covers, ra manifolds, air cleaners, wiring harness, front bumper, tail light bezels etc.etc etc."

Not to mention the pictures of the GTO body do not match the body of the lemans.
1.) I won't even ask why the vin tag was removed from the car. To some there are valid reasons.
2.) If this thread is showing the complete restoration, where are the pictures that show the dash being replaced and the lower front windshield seam being rebuilt? In case no one noticed half the lower dash is missing due to rust this would have transferred to the floor and rotted out the floor around the drain hole area. Lower windshield seams on the ends are rotted so bad they fell. This also means there is other structural damaging rust that needed to be taken care or down in the Kick panel area. So if this car isn't vin swapped, these pictures must be around because these are involved repairs worth documenting. There are other areas on the GTO body that would have most likely needed work, but I don't want to speculate.
3.) If this restore shop is of high caliber (definitely not questioning their work), why would they be so stupid to remove the body they are using with a tow motor with no body protection near the fork blade tips? yes there is underlying structure there, but not enough not to protect the shell or risk damage.
4.) There are pictures of the frame being disassembled on 10/30 getting prepped for powder coating, but yet the pictures from 11/28 that show the trunk floor being welded in shows a frame under the car with the chassis assembled. Did the restore shop decide to reassemble the chassis for practice or is this a second body and chassis? Also note that the original picture where the body on the tow motor the B-pillars were red and the other picture shows them gold. Maybe the shop was able to remove just the layer of red or they shot the car gold before proceeding?

5.) Also observe the shot that shows the painted underside of the body. The hole in the trans tunnel is consistent with the hole of a automatic console. Manual hole is much large thus needing the 4spd hump which would be viewable from underneath. This car is supposed to be a manual? The proceeded with paint on the automatic body because they need the chassis and body on so that they can align the shifter to the body to guarantee correct location.



So this is my case with not spending too much time on it. And I tried taking it to PM's but someone that some how had the intelligence to be a pilot decided to bring it back here and for that I am sorry Andre for again bringing this thread down.

[Andre]

You have some fine detective qualities. I have to admire that.

[rzrektd]

Originally Posted by Andre

You have some fine detective qualities. I have to admire that.

Thanks!

[Tripower455]

Who said I was upset? Did I tell you this?

You did........

It upsets me when people take credit for the work they didn't do or if they swapped vins.

Plus, even if you hadn't told, based on your extensive rants on the subject, one can easily surmise that you are/were upset. Sorry if I misconstrued your emotional state.


BTW, you were an "uninvolved party" until you became involved, and contributed mainly negative commentary, based on assumptions, to the thread.......

[Tripower455]

Originally Posted by Andre

You have some fine detective qualities. I have to admire that.

But clearly has no life........

rsztek, let's see some pics of your Pontiac...... Do you even own one?


Even if Andre does swap bodies, at what point is it a "VIN swap"? He currently has a numbers matching GTO. If he replaces every part of the body except the part where the vin is riveted to the door post, is that OK, as long as the vin rivets aren't touched?

Arguably, a perfect LeMans body would be more correct than grafting on imported quarters, floors, cowl, rockers, wheel wells etc., as the LeMans was assembled by GM and it is EXACTLY the same as a GTO. The only difference is the tail panel.

My tail panel, trunk floors, driver's floor, lower quarters and lower windshield panel have been replaced due to damage or rust, along with one door, the hood and both fenders... Is mine a "vin swap" or is it OK, because the same VIN tag is attached to the same part of the same body as it was when it rolled off the factory floor? I did remove the VIN and cowl tag for dipping, so probably not in your eyes.

I honestly think that swapping a good body shell is no different (but better) than replacing almost all of the sheet metal. Would you feel less upset if Andre junked the car he's owned for 25 years? It's not as if he is taking a Tempest and adding all of the GTO parts to it to make a "new" GTO. He is taking a numbers matching GTO and repairing the parts that need repairing during a frame off.......

[Rzepka_R]

Guys,

I think we can safely say that if prices continue to increase on these cars many of these questions will get answered for us and it won't matter what any of us think or feel personally..

In reality there are laws in-place today, but they aren't enforced frequently enough for the general public to know them well. That and they are probably different from state to state, without any real clear understanding of what occurs when such cars go from one state to another..

I think in most states the chassis is considered the actual car, yet most frames only have partial VIN's on them, the body is the part with the full VIN tag. Laws were created to prevent tampering with the actual VIN tag on the body because of stolen cars, thought was probably not given to investment value of collectable cars.. I'm sure in many states it is simply illegal to tamper with a VIN, there probably isn't much detail into why you can or can't, it's simply illegal. In many states there are probably clear laws on how much of a car needs to remain to keep it from being considered "totalled" -- these laws, again, probably were not thought up while thinking about collectable cars, they were made up to have something a little more clear with respect to totalling cars after accidents..

I imagine every state may be different, but if I owned a newer car, say a Z06 that was some rare combination, and it was "totalled" in an accident, I'm sure a law (all be it loose) may exist to prevent me from not accepting that determination and demanding it to be "restored".. I think we'd find things would get messy if we tried "bringing it back" when next to nothing was left of the original car.. Again though, these laws were to prevent the next buyer from getting a car that was involved in a major accident, not to protect an "investment".. I know there are such things as reconstructed and salvage titles in some states and there are laws governing the use of such..

I might be totally wrong, but I doubt there are laws that were actually designed around collectable cars, only around tampering with respect to stolen cars and how "damaged" something can be and yet not be considered totalled for insurance/next buyer type reasons.

This makes it such that a recent buyer of a collectable car that comes to find information about how much of the car was replaced is left using laws not really designed around the exact situation he is in if he is upset about what he found out. What, in this persons mind, is "too much" might be different from what the person he bought it off feels was okay, but the existing laws will be used to come to an agreement.

The entire issue of VIN's with respect to collectable cars boils down to holding on to the car's value -- no more, no less.. As prices continue to increase there will be continued effort to differentiate one car from another and more problems will come up about these such topics. Either new laws will be created or, more likely, the existing laws will be used regardless of how well they fit the situation..

To a buyer that is upset about recent findings of a new purchase, his first step would be to simply see if removal of a VIN is illegal, regardless of the reason why, in the state he lives in or the state he purchased the car from. If that fails to resolve the issue the next step would be to look into the details of what constitutes a salvage or reconstructed title, if these type of titles are applicable in either state, and relate what occured on this car with respect to the details that govern such titles. There may be a few other laws that may fit as well, but if no laws are broken in either state then no crime has been commited and regardless of if someone likes it or not there isn't anything anyone can do..

This really isn't an issue of what anyone personally feels is right, wrong, okay or not okay -- it comes down to money and when a new person buys a car and thinks the product he purchased was not represented with full honesty and current or future value of that purchase is or could be effected, people will end up having the law determining what is right, wrong, okay or not okay.. The outcome of this may be different from state to state..

Rich

[bulletpruf]

Rich,

Yep, you're right, the laws will vary significantly from state to state on this. I'm an attorney, and will see what I can dig up on a few states - probably Va., La., and Tx b/c I live in Charlottesville, Va, but moving to Austin, Tx, and I'm from La.

Will let y'all know what I find.

Scott

[Tripower455]

(c) This chapter does not apply to anyone who removes, possesses, or replaces a manufacturer's or state-assigned identification number plate, in the course of performing repairs on a vehicle, that require such removal or replacement. If the repair requires replacement of a vehicle part that contains the manufacturer's or state-assigned identification number plate, the manufacturer's or state-assigned identification number plate that is assigned to the vehicle being repaired will be installed on the replacement part. The manufacturer's or state-assigned identification number plate that was removed from this replacement part will be installed on the part that was removed from the vehicle being repaired.

FL Statutes, Title XXIII, Chapter 319.30 paragraph 4c

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/...0319/Sec30.HTM

[bulletpruf]

Tripower455 - thanks for the info. If anyone else has their state's laws on the subject, please let me know. Not sure how far I'll get, but I'll be glad to compile all that I find.

Thanks,

Scott

[rzrektd]

Originally Posted by Tripower455

FL Statutes, Title XXIII, Chapter 319.30 paragraph 4c

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/...0319/Sec30.HTM

Tripower, you are accurate that I stated I am upset as I admitted, but after thinking about it, I really don't care what you and some others on this board think and I am reckless for letting it get under my skin.

I'll scan pics of my car soon enough for you to look at and pick apart at will, but I'll warn you that it was in worse condition than Andre's or your car and I too had to do a lot of work to it that others would have either A swapped the vins with a lemans or just parted the car out. I regret taking on this big of a project, but I sleep in the bed I make so I deal with it. Not much on it is original, but I am happy with the results I am seeing so far. Again, I'll have the pics on here soon!

In closing after wasting this thread (sorry). I have a few things to say.

1.) if swapping the vin is not a wrong thing to do in Florida or in Andre's or your eyes, why not admit that it has been done or not have been done either way. Shouldn't matter either way. What I think isn't the law in Florida or any state. Andre has not acknowledged or denied to this point except in the quotes from two other threads from before he started the restore so I don't expect any answer to this.

2.) If Andre shows me evidence at a vin swap has not been done and I will never post on PY forums again. I will accept pictures from the dash replacement process and windshield lip replacement process as acceptable means of proof as long as they show evidence that they are from the original GTO body shown in the picture hanging from the forklift blades and include before, during, and after pictures.

3.) Does anyone object to me moving to florida and buying 14 leman's cars and swapping the vins with the 14 vins/titles that I might have access to and have 14 non numbers matching GTO's after I restore them? They aren't as valuable as numbers matching car, but they'll still pull in some cash. I'll attach the lemans vins to the old bodies right before I put them through a car shredder.

4.) What basis is used to determine if a repair requires the removal of a vin plate? I am sure this would require the analysis of a professional who would be qualified to determine? And this professional, what credentials are required to make such a decision? Maybe bulletpruf could elaborate on this because of his legal background. Also, section c states that it is acceptable to remove vin plate to repair the part it is attached to. It does not state anything about an assembly so how would that be handled? A part is defined in the dictionary as a portion of a whole; piece; segment and because the firewall has it's own PART number assigned to it by GM, I don't see how it can include the body assembly.

[Tripower455]

Originally Posted by rzrektd

Tripower, you are accurate that I stated I am upset as I admitted, but after thinking about it, I really don't care what you and some others on this board think and I am reckless for letting it get under my skin.

I agree...... Some of us really don't care what you think either. Lighten up a bit......

I'll scan pics of my car soon enough for you to look at and pick apart at will, but I'll warn you that it was in worse condition than Andre's or your car and I too had to do a lot of work to it that others would have either A swapped the vins with a lemans or just parted the car out. I regret taking on this big of a project, but I sleep in the bed I make so I deal with it. Not much on it is original, but I am happy with the results I am seeing so far. Again, I'll have the pics on here soon!

Post away...... I am sure that no one will pick apart your car.

In closing after wasting this thread (sorry). I have a few things to say.

1.) if swapping the vin is not a wrong thing to do in Florida or in Andre's or your eyes, why not admit that it has been done or not have been done either way. Shouldn't matter either way. What I think isn't the law in Florida or any state. Andre has not acknowledged or denied to this point except in the quotes from two other threads from before he started the restore so I don't expect any answer to this.

No one is "swapping VINS"......... The number of bona fide '66 GTOs is still the same when his car is done. He is repairing his numbers matching GTO. It is legal in FL to remove the VIN if necessary to repair the car. If the car needs a new body shell to repair it, and it is replaced with another, that falls under the definition of repair, does it not? Where's the issue? He is not making a "new" GTO out of a LeMans.

2.) If Andre shows me evidence at a vin swap has not been done and I will never post on PY forums again. I will accept pictures from the dash replacement process and windshield lip replacement process as acceptable means of proof as long as they show evidence that they are from the original GTO body shown in the picture hanging from the forklift blades and include before, during, and after pictures.

I am sure that he is losing sleep over this........

3.) Does anyone object to me moving to florida and buying 14 leman's cars and swapping the vins with the 14 vins/titles that I might have access to and have 14 non numbers matching GTO's after I restore them? They aren't as valuable as numbers matching car, but they'll still pull in some cash. I'll attach the lemans vins to the old bodies right before I put them through a car shredder.

If you are converting LeMans' to GTOs, then yes. If you are repairing an existing GTO, then no. See how simple it is?

4.) What basis is used to determine if a repair requires the removal of a vin plate? I am sure this would require the analysis of a professional who would be qualified to determine? And this professional, what credentials are required to make such a decision? Maybe bulletpruf could elaborate on this because of his legal background. Also, section c states that it is acceptable to remove vin plate to repair the part it is attached to. It does not state anything about an assembly so how would that be handled? A part is defined in the dictionary as a portion of a whole; piece; segment and because the firewall has it's own PART number assigned to it by GM, I don't see how it can include the body assembly.

I guess it depends on your definition of assembly. An assembly that needs a cutting torch to dissassemble would likely be defined as a part. I'll bet that if this type of case ever got to court, and the particulars of the restoration were placed in front of a judge, that the body shell assembly would be considered a part, in and of itself.


I'll argue that my body required dipping after many many hours of attempting to remove old undercoating, not only from the bottom of the body, but the enitre trunk area, including the insides of the quarters. I wasn't willing to risk losing or etching the VIN tag in the caustic bath, so I removed it and reattached it after the repair (removal of the undercoating material) was complete.

So, using your logic, the door post that the VIN is mounted on, out to the first welded seam, is the only part that is allowed to be repaired while removing the VIN?

[Andre]

This is all very interesting reading. For the group I ponder this question.

If my '66 GTO was a matching numbers automatic 4bbl car, and I used the body from a tripower 4 speed Ram Air car, that was once owne by Elvis Presley to restore it, would anyone be mad at me?

Of course they would. This post would be 10 times longer than it already is.

What I did do was just the opposite. I used portions of a Lemans body and other various and sundry parts from a car that had no sentimental value to me in combination with parts from many other cars, reproduction parts, and new engine internals to restore the first GTO I ever owned.

[Andre]

I'm suprised to see there was no further discussion on this topic in the last 12 hours/ I hope we can beat the topic into the ground without personal attacks... especially against me.

For todays installment- The long block has been assembled. The color is the same, but the flash photo is lighting up the picture on the right hand side more than the left resulting in the engine looking silver on those surfaces.

[Andre]

The accessories have been installed, along with the HO manifolds and the assembly has been put into the chassis. In the background of the first picture you can see the body on the modified rotessiere getting ready for it's ride to the paint booth.

In the second picture you can see the bellhousing, transmission etc.

After ending my classes at the junior college for the day in 1981, I went out to my car, only to find that I could not get the car into gear while it was running. I drover 45 miles home on the interstate using only 3rd and 4th gear.
The transmission had a broken synchro and other various maladies. It was rebuilt by Aamaco transmission shop.

A 2006 inspection revealed only a broken snap ring, and a speedo gear that was busted up because it was not installed properly. In all, it looks like they didn't treat me too bad.

[lkt1954]

Andre,

Looks great, makes me want to get mine finished even sooner to beat you (lol). The work looks excellent, good luck in finishing.

With all the ranting from rzrektd, I would love to hear him on a chebby camero and the body in a box that you can purchase now. Where would that fall in his views???????

Larry

[Andre]

Larry- It's interesting that you mention the Chevy Camaro in a box. The general discussion that has been going through the collectors market is that Pontiac and Chrysler super cars are the ones to invest in.
The reason is that PHS can provide documentation for Pontiac, and Chrysler has cues in it's vin to indicate what motor the car actually started it's life as.

Since Chevrolet's can only be documented by original build sheets, they are very prone to being faked. I heard there are even fake build sheets with seat spring staining being generated to authenticate home built cars.

Again for all- lets discuss our views, but lets try to avoid getting this post pulled.