[dancolkate]

Three years ago I got my (now) wife a Secret Decoder Ring. For a while, I thought it was just an expensive shiney stone in a gold band. Boy was I surprised!

Turns out that ring has supernatural powers:

1) Immediately after she put it on, at 10PM each night a headache appeared.
2) Even though I paid the EXACT same amount of $ for the GTO, the "car is ridiculous".
3) Pre-ring it was perfectly OK to fart in bed (or anywhere else).
4) The ring's most recent secret message "I need Secret Diamond Earings to match".

[md1twal3]

Originally Posted by dancolkate

Three years ago I got my (now) wife a Secret Decoder Ring. For a while, I thought it was just an expensive shiney stone in a gold band. Boy was I surprised!

Turns out that ring has supernatural powers:

1) Immediately after she put it on, at 10PM each night a headache appeared.
2) Even though I paid the EXACT same amount of $ for the GTO, the "car is ridiculous".
3) Pre-ring it was perfectly OK to fart in bed (or anywhere else).
4) The ring's most recent secret message "I need Secret Diamond Earings to match".

Dan...the Secret Decoder Ring is not to be confused with the Secretly Encoded Ring that husbands may fall victim to

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Originally Posted by taximan

Looks like only 169 decoder rings available on EBay.

After that the price goes up, and I am going to sell restamped decoder rings because no one will ever know if they are original

Okay Taxi, so you're doing the Jackets AND the Rings too. Will we get a discount on the set or any combined shipping ? I need a Medium Jacket but going to wait til your rings come out in hopes that your restamped rings will be much cheaper than the comparable originals. There is a Silver 69 Judge on the Bay that has the same EUN as the last digits of VIN, along with some other discrepencies. He needs a Ring, I think.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

DOUG : It would be great if PHS would break the information down for us as to Colors and what not in production totals. It's possible to do, but would take them considerable amounts of data entry/time into a program that would spit it out in an instant for us. So it won't get done anytime soon - if ever. They have crunched some numbers, but of course we would wish for everything to be crunched. Technology would allow the program to tell in an instant how many 70 Judges were Red with Red interior Ram III 4spd, etc...etc... There are those who would gladly take this task and have inquired about it doing it. But providing the data with the necessary pertinent data removed would take more time than compiling the program - so it's easier for them to just say NO. You really can't just drop all that information on someone with VIN's included because you don't know who might get it from there after that point or during the programming. It would also open the possibility for them to under-cut PHS service at a later time. Just too many possibilities of disaster. So he protects it to his best ability.

If the engine unit number can be found for any Car in any archive, it should be included in the service. It is probably the most vital information a person could hope for in this day and time. Not disclosing that particular information is NOT protecting the hobby, it is doing just the opposite.

DAN : Your decoder ring story was funny as he||.

The text you pasted from CP is good info. I could fill volumes on this subject - but I try not to over do it. All that is really necessary is to have the information included with the service or offered as extra to those who understand and want it. Banging numbers shouldn't be necessary nor should books have to be written. Number crunching isn't going to be consistent due to defective units pulled from line and so many other aspects. But it hurts nothing to try - you might can get us close to the ballpark or develop a "range" - for what it's worth.

I can get you more matched examples from some of my Cars if you want to keep tinkering with finding a formula.

[dancolkate]

I pasted this off the CP site. In my opinion, this is the most interesting statements so far on this subject:

Written 3/9/05:
"SOME of the PHS docs will show the Motor Unit No., but most do not. '64 Fremont docs do, '64 KC docs do by virtue of having an imprint of the factory produced warranty Ident-O-Plate on them. The '64 Pontiac plant doc does NOT show the m.u.n. Motor unit nos. can help determine "matching nos." to a degree even if the warranty booklet is gone and the PHS docs don't include it. A careful study of m.u.n.'s can help determine if a particular m.u.n. is POSSIBLE for a given car build date or not and is a LOT more precise than a block casting date. But it takes a TON of m.u.n. study to sort out actual engine assembly dates by m.u.n., so don't expect anybody to have casual knowledge about this"

[md1twal3]

That is an interesting statement...I wonder how the "poster" became aware of such facts?

[dr-doug]

Were all engines born at the same plant that their future home was(car)? Or did some engines go one place while others went elsewhere(with MUN's already stamped)

Did pontiac make the exact same number of engines as they did cars? Where did the SR's come from? Do they have a MUN on them?

Senario again: 10 ram IV's come down a line...Numbers are assignd to them with a stamp. The assembly line that is building the GTO's need's 8, the line that is building the Trans Am's needs 2. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 go to the GTO line for installation, 9 10 go to the Trans am's. There is no way that ram III's, ram IV's and base model engines were built on an as needed basis with a MUN assigned and a VIN assigned as they were built remember they were built a month or so in advance.
The 2 items became one on an assembly line. the numbers had to be a random mating.

[dancolkate]

Now at least we know WTF we're looking for. The MUN won't be a dead on match to a VIN.....instead, it relates to the build date of the car!

BVZ wrote: Do you need some more corresponding VIN/EUN #'s ?

No, now what I need are a bunch on MUN's with corresponding BUILD DATES.


Now the math starts all over again....

[dancolkate]

Regarding the silver judge on ebay:

Bidder Q: Is the engine original(numbers matching)? Is there rust anywhere? What was done to the engine? Were the valve guides hardened to run on unleaded? thanks, Steve H.

Seller A: Hi Steve, the engine block numbers match the VIN Number as they should and the Letter code matches the car as also it should. I refreshed the engine this past year to stock specs.

[md1twal3]

Originally Posted by dancolkate

Regarding the silver judge on ebay:

Bidder Q: Is the engine original(numbers matching)? Is there rust anywhere? What was done to the engine? Were the valve guides hardened to run on unleaded? thanks, Steve H.

Seller A: Hi Steve, the engine block numbers match the VIN Number as they should and the Letter code matches the car as also it should. I refreshed the engine this past year to stock specs.

Odd, though how the MUN/EUN matches the VIN, isn't it? Also seems strange that it is an "F" car with an "A" head and intake, and then an "E" for the other head.

Am I out of line here by suspecting that this may be a restamp?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Ponti...ayphotohosting

[dancolkate]

"Am I out of line here by suspecting that this may be a restamp?"

It sure looks that way to me. And only $33k so far without the reserve being met.

[dancolkate]

Here is another very interesting post taken from the CP site.

Mr. Ransom, you da man.

Topic: 60949

Add Response/Jump to Last


- Engine numbers 70 T/A - Tom Tabor Bio 6/10/05 9:01
Just wondering what all of the different numbers on the block are for.I know the one close to the timming cover is the number that matches my vin# then above that near the pass head is another series of numbers plus YZ. At the back is a 70 then another number near the pass head. Anybody have a book that tells about these?



Responses



John V. Bio 6/10/05 10:01
Lots of resources to find decodes for engine nos., some good, some not so good, none perfect.

The 7 digit code by the YZ is the Motor Unit No. It will start with a 0 because Pontiac never assembled 1,000,000 units.

The M.U.N. is an engine assembly serial no., if your no. is 0123456, it just means this was the 123,456th engine assembly put together at the Engine Plant (Pontiac only had one engine assembly plant, located at the home facility in Pontiac, Mich from where they were distributed to the various Final Assembly plants based on production demand) for the '70 model year.

The YZ is a manifest code. The Build Order would call for components by manifest code, the engine assembly was no different. When the Build Order called for a YZ code engine assembly, they pulled one out of inventory and put it in the car. The Engine Plant had a recipe that told them what each engine assembly should consist of by manifest code. If they didn't screw it up, the YZ would call for specific block, cam, heads, crank, intake, distributor, exhaust manifolds, etc. The carb was added on the final line (also by manifest code) and was not part of the engine assembly.

The number at the rear of the block on a ledge behind the no. 8 cyl is the block casting p/n. Should be 9799914 for a '70 400 block. This was the p/n assigned to a casting that the foundry produced. The p/n was assigned by Pontiac Engineering just like any other p/n assignment as they designed and released the parts. Pontiac did not service bare blocks so you will not find this p/n listed in the Master Parts Catalog.

On the pad by the Distributor hole you will find the cast date code. This code will tell you when the block was cast. It does not indicate when the engine was assembled, although obviously it was assembled AFTER the block was cast and BEFORE the car was built.

The Motor Unit Nos. can be carefully studied for a given model year and a fairly close approximation/guesstimation of the date the engine was assembled can be made.

For matching nos., a careful study of the p/n's, cast or assembly dates, and any other markings of ALL of the individual engine components can be done to determine if everything related to the motor is factory correct and apparently original.

Ask here if you have a specific question. Nice part about this forum, if you get bad input, somebody else will be sure to jump in and correct it. Read a book and you might take as gospel something that others have proven wrong.

Tom Tabor Bio 6/10/05 11:58
John, Thanks much for the info, very interesting. The number on the back is 9799914 and by the distributor hole it has a 70 and under that 0120. To the right must be the day or night as the arrow is pointed to the D with a 4 under it. The front number above the YZ is 0461577. On the build date number would the 0120 be Jan 12, 1970?

John V. Bio 6/10/05 12:37
You're misreading the cast date code, which is common and why I never like to use that code for engine decoding.

The '70 'bird went on sale early Feb, '70. I believe the earliest cars were being assembled mid Jan and obviously, 'bird engines were assembled and at the Final Plant by then.

But I suspect what you see as 0120 is either C120 or D120 (March 12 and April 12, '70 respectively. More often I suspect the C will be read as an O or 0, but could be a D I suppose. Either way, the iron foundry cast date codes will always be a letter followed by 3 digits in 1970. Check the Time Built code on the Body Data Plate. That code will read something like 03E or 05A meaning 5th week March or 1st week May. That might help determine what the block cast date is most likely.

You are correct about the Day Night shift pointer.

I do not have a Motor Unit No. log for 1970 motors, but 0461577 is most likely a motor assembled in March or even later from evidence of other model years.

Tom Tabor Bio 6/10/05 14:08
John, Again thanks for the great information, I will double check that date code tonight, it must be a C as I believe that according to the PHS info I have the car was built the end of March.

Kings Ransom Bio 6/10/05 20:18
According to the M.U.N., your engine should have been cast in March.

Tom Tabor Bio 6/10/05 21:59
I re-checked the date and it was C120, March 12, 1970?

transamric Bio 6/11/05 2:40
Yep.

[md1twal3]

This may have already been established, but could the EUN be more closely associated with the block cast part number than the actual two letter code? I ask because it seems that there are lots of vehicles that use the same cast number that get different codes (WS, YZ, YS, ect) assigned to them based on application. Given the higher number in the EUNs as it relates to body number this thought may make more sense...

thoughts?

[dancolkate]

Hey John,
Just wanted to say your site is really good. Lots of good info there. After we get this figured out, you can add a EUN search to your database!!

[Rzepka_R]

Guys,

The engine sequence number is stamped on the machined surface of the front of the block, not in a raw cast area. It was stamped after that machining operation and the two digit code stamped long after that, once the engine was scheduled or all ready built into what it's final form was to be.. With any casting/machining line, it wouldn't surprise me in the least to have a sequence number lower on a block cast a few days later then another.. Sometimes it's first in - first out, sometime last out - first in when it comes to machining raw castings..

I should have looked back at some of the numbers before I started typing, but I think I read in a book somewhere that 1965 was record year of close to a million cars so to use that just as a reference we probably have close to a million engine sequence numbers for every year of production..

Just using really rough numbers... if you manufacture close to a million engines in a production year and take a year as maybe 10 months, you're looking at 100,000 a month! Pretend for a second they work 7 days a week producing engines, that's 3,200 engines a day! Working three full shifts that's 133 on hour! Don't forget this isn't way out there, the Pontiac plant alone pumped out finshed cars at a rate of like 80 an hour! Looking back to my case with the 1966 GTO with two cars built at the same plant about 3,000 V8's apart from each other, yet engine sequence numbers close to 60,000 apart.... Well, that's only 18 days or so different in an engine build number when you consider how many they're pumping out..

Rich

[Rzepka_R]

Dr Doug...

Your car built 3rd week of November with an engine sequence of 216,895 and mine (yes, totally different year and such, but...) built 2nd week of March (block casting numbers in the begining of Feb) with a engine sequence starting with 409xxx.... Well, the math of somewhere around 100,000 a month starts to make sense...

At the same time with engines getting pumped out at that rate, the "error" with any kind of "range" on engine sequence numbers to car build dates would be HUGE! In the time it would take to ship engines across the country litterally thousands and thousands more would have been assembled and used closer to home.. Come to think of it, hundreds and hundreds would have been assembled in the time it took to load up ones getting shipped out

Rich

[Held for Ransom]

dr-doug,
Your car was built approx. 5000 cars after mine. And about 33000 PEN (EUN, EPN, MUN or whatever) after mine. I collect the trim tag information off of Fremont cars and would like to add yours to my list. Could you PM or E-mail me? Thanks.

[Steve Hoog]

Here's a couple for the cause:

69-400 GTO 29R150072 9790071 D C049 YS 0582823

68-428 GP 8R118058 9792968 D I157 YH 164333

[Steve Hoog]

I'm doing an Excel data base on this for fun, I'm sure some of you already have a zillione but I only have my two and the five other I found in this thread. If anyone has any they consider non tampered and will share, here is what I'm collecting:

Year Cast Part # VIN Code EUN Date Code Car
1968 9792968 8R118058 YH 164333 I157 GP
1969 9790071 29R150072 YS 0582823 C049 GTO
1970 F11765X YS 0216895 J229 GTO
1970 N1110XX YS 0226748 J209 Firebird
1970 R1152XX WS 0162030 J029 GTO
1970 9799914 YZ 0461577 C120

It's a little out of wack from pasting in here, but I promise it looks good in the spread sheet.

[dancolkate]

Steve,
Great idea!

I've got a couple of 400's down stairs and I'll get all the numbers.

However I think we need to also record the trim tag info as well (if avail)

I suggest this this based on the following statement posted over on the CP site:

"A careful study of m.u.n.'s can help determine if a particular m.u.n. is POSSIBLE for a given car build date or not and is a LOT more precise than a block casting date. But it takes a TON of m.u.n. study to sort out actual engine assembly dates by m.u.n., so don't expect anybody to have casual knowledge about this"