[bigunde]

[QUOTE=sleepy;4655601]On topic, The ZL1 should never have gone into production because GM should not be here.[/QUOTE]
Your statement. Not a BIG difference as you stated. And again I believe ALL debts should be paid back. So with that, should Chrysler have been shelved too?

[sleepy]

Originally Posted by bigunde

You said GM should have been let go BACK THEN. Ill ask again, what about Chrysler BACK THEN. We had NO way to know about payback.

Yes. they should have had to go thru bankruptcy JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE. Not this modified for the UAW to not lose anything crap.
The UAW bailout was political support payback, If any car company wasn't using union labor the government wouldn't have given them a dime, They woould have said the company wasn't run well and deserved to go under.

[68gtoMN]

Originally Posted by The Champ

The Mustang's sales numbers are in the 70's, not the Camaro's.



It has been. The 6 models years prior to the introduction of the 5th gen Mustang, the yearly average Mustang sales were about 143,000 per year (Peak sales 2001 at 169,198 - Low sales 2004 at 129,858). This was for a 4th gen Mustang that had been introduced in 1994 - an old outdated design for sure - but sales were fairly consistent with less than a 40,000 unit difference between the high and the low.

Since the introduction of the 5th gen Mustang, the yearly average Mustang sales have been about 109,000 (Peak sales of 166,530 in 2006 - Low sales of 66,623 in 2009). Even with the new design and NO competition in it's segment - the 5th gen Mustang couldn't beat the numbers of the tired old looking 2001 4th gen. And sales variation was nearly 100,000 units less between the high and the low.



The Camaro is the LEAST retro of the current Pony Car crowd, yet it is the best selling car. The Mustang's sales have plummeted and the Challenger has yet to break 40,000 sales in a year.

I'm glad they didn't go as retro as Ford and Chrysler. I'd have been happier if they hadn't gone as retro as they did.

Ford's "new" Mustang appears to be a total departure from the retro look, so it appears Ford also realizes that the 5th gen Mustang has been a marketing disaster.

What's it like to go through your day knowing that it's down hill from the moment you open your mouth?

You spend countless hours researching your thesis (that Mustangs are a failure) for a paper that nobody wants to read. But turnabout is fair play - if the Camaro was such a success, why did Chevrolet stop production for 8 model years? Blah blah blah

If you like the Camaro, buy the Camaro. If you like a Mustang, buy a Mustang. Accept that each does something well. And if I want to read an uninformed partisan hack bloviate, I'll muddle through your posts...

[big hammer]

[QUOTE=68gtoMN;4657472]What's it like to go through your day knowing that it's down hill from the moment you open your mouth?

You spend countless hours researching your thesis (that Mustangs are a failure) for a paper that nobody wants to read. But turnabout is fair play - if the Camaro was such a success, why did Chevrolet stop production for 8 model years? Blah blah blah

If you like the Camaro, buy the Camaro. If you like a Mustang, buy a Mustang. Accept that each does something well. And if I want to read an uninformed partisan hack bloviate, I'll muddle through your posts...[/QUOTE]

now that really describes alot of the ford fanbois here.

[Tazzz2]

They're both pretty cool,,,, but show me the 200mph Mustang that can go around a corner and drive down the street??? I'm not aware of any (could exist,,, just haven't heard of,,, or seen one).... Been in the Lingenfelter ZL1 and man it rocks,,,, does Roush or others offer a 200mph offering in the Mustang camp????

[F ROCK]

supercars. i'll never own one so it doesnt matter to me.



how many of these "super" versions get sold?

i know nothing about the sales numbers of either of these models but i see ALOT of these retro mustangs. Camaro's too.
I like 'em both.

[MikeNoun]

Very interesting read from Motor Trend, pitting the ZL1 vs. the Shelby GT500. Motor Trend compares them at the dragstrip, on a road course, and most importantly, since 99% of these cars will never see a race track, they report on how they behave on the street.

Definitely worth reading the entire article, not just the spec sheets.

http://autos.yahoo.com/news/2012-che...0-.html?page=1

Both fantastic cars!

[Tom Vaught]

"At the end of our road loops, the response from the editors was consistent. The Mustang was simply harder to drive fast. Some preferred the challenge instead of the Camaro's reflexive, unflappable handling, but unless you're our esteemed road test editor or a professional racer, you'll be faster and more confident behind the wheel of the Camaro."

"The 662-horsepower GT500 hits 60 mph in 3.5 seconds to the 580-horsepower ZL1's 3.8 seconds. The gap only widens from there, with the GT500 finishing the quarter-mile in 11.6 seconds at a blazing 125.7 mph, trailed by the Camaro at 12.1 seconds and 117.4 mph.

"When you're putting that much torque to just two tires, these things happen. The Mustang and its extra 75 lb-ft of torque suffer more here, with more wheel spin and more sliding around. As a result, the race is actually very close through the first two gears until the Mustang finally hooks up and walks away in third."

"Despite its better times, the Mustang is more work to drive fast. But to quote everyone's favorite drag racing movie, "winning's winning." With Ford's adjustable launch control, even a novice drag racer will be able to put away ZL1s at the drag strip behind the wheel of a GT500."

Several Comments:

Most Road Editors are "trained drivers" like a lot of Ford Engineers who have gone thru Bondurant's Driving School on Ford's Dime. I went thru the driving schools. A guy on the road, though, might have a LOT of SCCA experience (Solo, etc) and drive better than I can). He or She might be able to manage the Gt500s live axle without issues without even thinking about it.

The GT500 BASIC Engine put BUS-LENGTHS on the ZL-1 (and this not even with the GOOD Motor, the 750 HP Engine (the "SUPER SNAKE" engine that is out there).

(I was asked to do a 1000 HP engine at one time by management) (;>)

The drag racing times would probably really improve with a decent set of 275 DR tires.

Tom Vaught

[MikeNoun]

Tom, does it seem like the road course times are a wash? The Camaro had higher lateral g's, but was a little slower on the road course. Then they said the Mustang brakes faded after lap 1, so the edge went to the Camaro by lap 2. It seems like if you had a couple NASCAR or Aussie Supercar drivers going at it, they'd be pretty much dead even.

The dragstrip was where the biggest difference was, and understandably so, with the Mustang have so much more horsepower than the Camaro. The 125 mph trap speed of the Mustang is downright silly. That's a 10-second car with traction (I know folks have already accomplished this).

The technology of both cars is amazing.

[big hammer]

actually after lap 1 the mustang just got slower and slower. very poorly engineered car.

[big hammer]

from motortrend

"Be it a back road or the daily commute, the Camaro ZL1 is the better street car. Its magnetorheological shock absorbers offer an impressive performance range, smoothing the impacts of rough pavement in Tour mode and keeping the heavy chassis under control in Sport mode. Senior features editor Jonny Lieberman described it to me as "basically a sportier CTS-V," balancing ride and handling beautifully. The GT500, by contrast, suffers from a stiffer ride and too much vertical motion. Every bump gets your head bobbing up and down as the big Shelby bucks like an unbroken colt. Its two-mode Bilstein shocks are simply too stiff for everyday driving, even in Normal mode."

[big hammer]

"While the Mustang was a half-second faster around the track than the ZL1 on its best lap, it couldn't repeat the performance. By the end of the first lap, the brakes had already begun to heat up so badly, we could smell them from the pits as the car passed by on the front straight. By the end of the second lap, the Shelby had lost more than half of its advantage over the ZL1, turning a 1:39.03. By the third lap, the Mustang was behind the Camaro, turning a 1:39.30. The ZL1, meanwhile, never deviated by more than two-tenths of a second."

nothing surprising at all.

[Overkillphil]

Mustang is a heavy car, no surprise. I remember seeing a photo of one parked next to a 67-8 fastback and was shocked at how puny the original looked next to the new one.

I'd still take the Mustang over the Camaro as I will never be racing either one on a road course for a magazine and looking for a gnats cock advantage. It'd be a street car for me and after sitting in an elcheapo, cramped and poorly finished Camaro I'm not plunking down all that hard earned cash for a "chassis and drivetrain" only to have to live with the rest of it being garbage.

[Mr_GTO]

Originally Posted by Overkillphil

Mustang is a heavy car, no surprise. I remember seeing a photo of one parked next to a 67-8 fastback and was shocked at how puny the original looked next to the new one.

I'd still take the Mustang over the Camaro as I will never be racing either one on a road course for a magazine and looking for a gnats cock advantage. It'd be a street car for me and after sitting in an elcheapo, cramped and poorly finished Camaro I'm not plunking down all that hard earned cash for a "chassis and drivetrain" only to have to live with the rest of it being garbage.

The interiors of the base camaro and the ZL1 are different. Go sit in one with the suede option and get back to us.

[Overkillphil]

I didn't sit in a base Camaro, it was one with a V-8. I am not quite sure I understand how suede will give me an entirely different impression of the cramped quarters, elcheapo fit and finish (both interior and exterior) and lack of headroom. My specific quality issues were the hood was like tin foil and gaps were almost double on one side vs. the other, exhaust pipes noticibly uneven, doors didn't have a solid feel when closed, interior styling and quality looked cheap and felt like a mid-80's "potato chip bag" F-body. It was a struggle to get my 6', 4" frame into the cockpit and once inside was quite uncomfortable. Perhaps its a more suitable car for Women. (?)

But you're right about Suede, it sure is nice!

[Tom Vaught]

Big Hammer, you are a smart guy. Help me out here.

They had professional race driver Randy Pobst take both cars out on the Inde Motorsports Ranch road course in AZ and the ZL1 lapped the 2.2-mile circuit 2.45 seconds faster than the BOSS. (This is the 5.0L vehicle vs the ZL-1).

"While the Mustang was a half-second faster around the track than the ZL1 on its best lap, it couldn't repeat the performance. By the end of the first lap, the brakes had already begun to heat up so badly, we could smell them from the pits as the car passed by on the front straight. By the end of the second lap, the SHELBY had lost more than half of its advantage over the ZL1, turning a 1:39.03. By the third lap, the Mustang was behind the Camaro, turning a 1:39.30. The ZL1, meanwhile, never deviated by more than two-tenths of a second."

So what is the car being tested? Is it a 5.0L BOSS or is it a Boosted SHELBY? TWO DIFFERENT CARS WITH TWO DIFFERENT POWERTRAINS. The article makes no sense, or you are mixing different articles/cars.

Tom Vaught

[Mr_GTO]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Big Hammer, you are a smart guy. Help me out here.

They had professional race driver Randy Pobst take both cars out on the Inde Motorsports Ranch road course in AZ and the ZL1 lapped the 2.2-mile circuit 2.45 seconds faster than the BOSS. (This is the 5.0L vehicle vs the ZL-1).

"While the Mustang was a half-second faster around the track than the ZL1 on its best lap, it couldn't repeat the performance. By the end of the first lap, the brakes had already begun to heat up so badly, we could smell them from the pits as the car passed by on the front straight. By the end of the second lap, the SHELBY had lost more than half of its advantage over the ZL1, turning a 1:39.03. By the third lap, the Mustang was behind the Camaro, turning a 1:39.30. The ZL1, meanwhile, never deviated by more than two-tenths of a second."

So what is the car being tested? Is it a 5.0L BOSS or is it a Boosted SHELBY? TWO DIFFERENT CARS WITH TWO DIFFERENT POWERTRAINS. The article makes no sense, or you are mixing different articles/cars.

Tom Vaught

I think it was a different article.

[Tom Vaught]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNOKVyCkhoI

Two Mustangs on a road course (Road Atlanta) properly driven at 160 mph.

Notice no violent manners from the IRS rear axle in the video. You can see the back end of the car
move around under power.

And these at 2008 cars, not 2012/2013 level cars.

I think the Pro Driver burned up the brakes on the Mustang vs ZL-1 test in a previous post.

Tom Vaught

[Tazzz2]

Originally Posted by Tazzz2

They're both pretty cool,,,, but show me the 200mph Mustang that can go around a corner and drive down the street??? I'm not aware of any (could exist,,, just haven't heard of,,, or seen one).... Been in the Lingenfelter ZL1 and man it rocks,,,, does Roush or others offer a 200mph offering in the Mustang camp????

You know it's kind of interesting to see/hear the back and forth.... The fact remains that we're in the likely Height of a Muscle car era of our own that will likely not be repeated again for another 20-30 years...

Lets agree that both cars are amazing, offer interesting styling differences, and are pretty Dam close to each other in most ways... I tend to be a GM guy from way back,,,, that said I think Mustangs are very cool cars and believe (in the older cars) they are going to grow in popularity in a notable fashion now that Detroit Speed is doing a suspension kit for them....

These Pro-touring cars will be incredibly fast, relatively comfortable and likely GM LS powered... The combo will create a street-able pump gas ride that will challenge the Euro offerings on all fronts and likely surpass them (in their stock form) on road course, Quarter mile and ownership maintenance costs....

In simple terms these cars will in my mind represent the heart and body of a true American Muscle Car that takes no hostages,,,, Euro or otherwise....