[geeteeohguy]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

20.6 MPG at 75 MPH is astounding. For any vehicle that heavy its good even by today,s standards.
All the extra tech is just something to break. Does it make a little more power, pollute a little less, sure.
But IMO its not worth it. Costs go way up, simple is usually better.

The secret is a 2.56 Safe-T-Track that I installed about 15 years ago. With the 3.36 gear, it got about 16 mpg at 65 mph.
A buddy who drove part of the time was impressed with the TORQUE the Pontiac engine produced. He was amazed we were able to maintain 80 mph and pass cars up long steep grades without as much as a downshift. The LS engines don't have the torque of the old Strato-Streak Pontiacs. And torque rules on a street car.

[Sirrotica]

FWIW, there are quite a few members here that own the late model GTO, as well as the old iron, me being one of them. They are 2 different cars, built 40 years apart from each other. I wouldn't expect them to be the same.

FYI, Holden used the Monaro body in Australia years before it was imported to the USA, one of the body/model options was named, guess what, Holden Special Vehicles (HSV) GTO, it was also available in a 4 door, and was called the HSV GTS. Holden already had a GTO, they just exported it to the USA, to be sold under the Pontiac name, by Pontiac dealers.

The second year Pontiac had styling input, and got both tailpipes on opposite sides of the car, along with twin hood scoops. It had a GTO moniker on it long before Bob Lutz commandeered it for sale in the USA by Pontiac dealers. I had a chip on my shoulder too, when it became available, but after test driving one, that chip fell off..........

You guys that live in CA can find old cars that aren't all rusted to hell, back east we don't have that luxury. If you could find an old GTO chances are it would look like this:



The best part, asking price is only $4000, and it's a roller shell, no drivetrain, interior, etc. etc. So we find vehicles that have some metal left in them for drivers. The other alternative is get one that comes from a rust free portion of the country, or pay $50-$60,000 for one that someone else has restored. $60,000 is over twice what paid for my 05 new. It is very expensive for guys back east to have vintage cars. People from the southwest just don't have to deal with rusty hulks that were only meant to be driven, possibly 10 years when they were new.

Because you can find and buy vintage cars in CA, and we have a real tough time finding something, doesn't mean we're not Pontiac fans.

[Gach]

Yeah a friend paid $55,000.00 for a 65 GTO. This is funny standing next to a friend I asked him hey what do you think of Joe’s GTO. He said its just a regular GTO. Its not fast like yours. I laughed…Made me feel good…LOL

Definitely nothing but rust buckets in New England area.

[geeteeohguy]

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

FWIW, there are quite a few members here that own the late model GTO, as well as the old iron, me being one of them. They are 2 different cars, built 40 years apart from each other. I wouldn't expect them to be the same.

FYI, Holden used the Monaro body in Australia years before it was imported to the USA, one of the body/model options was named, guess what, Holden Special Vehicles (HSV) GTO, it was also available in a 4 door, and was called the HSV GTS. Holden already had a GTO, they just exported it to the USA, to be sold under the Pontiac name, by Pontiac dealers.

The second year Pontiac had styling input, and got both tailpipes on opposite sides of the car, along with twin hood scoops. It had a GTO moniker on it long before Bob Lutz commandeered it for sale in the USA by Pontiac dealers. I had a chip on my shoulder too, when it became available, but after test driving one, that chip fell off..........

You guys that live in CA can find old cars that aren't all rusted to hell, back east we don't have that luxury. If you could find an old GTO chances are it would look like this:



The best part, asking price is only $4000, and it's a roller shell, no drivetrain, interior, etc. etc. So we find vehicles that have some metal left in them for drivers. The other alternative is get one that comes from a rust free portion of the country, or pay $50-$60,000 for one that someone else has restored. $60,000 is over twice what paid for my 05 new. It is very expensive for guys back east to have vintage cars. People from the southwest just don't have to deal with rusty hulks that were only meant to be driven, possibly 10 years when they were new.

Because you can find and buy vintage cars in CA, and we have a real tough time finding something, doesn't mean we're not Pontiac fans.

I paid the $1200 dollars the owner wanted for this car, a real tripower, 4 speed, guages, posi, console car. Zero rust, but the seats and headliner needed help. I didn't even try to talk him down. That was in 1982, and I've been driving it ever since. The trick is, not to get rid of them. I agree that I often forget that most other old car folks don't have it so good with these old rides. Both of my GTO's run the original brake and fuel lines and fuel tanks, etc. as well. That stuff doesn't go bad here.

[NeighborsComplaint]

Originally Posted by geeteeohguy

Hmmm. Just got back from a 2,715 mile road trip out to Colorado in my stock '67 GTO with born with engine, crank, rods, carb, and points distributor. I rebuilt it in 1988 about 85,000 miles ago. Car is nosing in on 260,000 miles. We averaged 20.6 mpg at a steady 75 mph and used 1/2 quart of oil the entire trip. And surprisingly, had no drivability issues at 8400 feet elevation. Car did not miss a beat. And I've been driving it for the past 40 years with no down time. People that think old tech is not usable or reliable are mis-informed. I even used to commute to work in town in my 103 year old, stock Ford T. Maintained, kept up, repaired as needed when needed, and driven within design parameters, old cars can be dead reliable. Attachment 614301

You missed the point. You could argue you made the same trip in a Model A Ford. You have a bone stock Pontiac as-built by the factory with components capable of a 100,000+ mile life and made be driven wherever a road is paved. You have by every definition a street-car that can be driven anywhere they sell gas but, does your car have the performance of an LS?

In order to match the performance of that LS, your car would have its antique behemoth of an engine propped up by a lumpy aftermarket roller cam and lifters, spring pressures to handle the aggressive lift and heavy valve train, aftermarket roller rockers, aluminum aftermarket heads, aftermarket distributor and ignition. Since the motor would no longer be tractable, a loose convertor, tall gears and a modified Turbo400 trans or an aftermarket overdrive trans would have to be fitted.

Try your trip in one of those so-called street cars and the average, weekend mechanic better keep Enterprise on speed dial, they pick you up.

Correctly performed, swapping in a modest LS engine provides the same level of performance along with the reliability of factory engineered components, longevity and real-world gas mileage. In the O/P's case in particular, the time he has spent behind the wheel would be measured in months instead of minutes. An LS swap can even be carbureted and run a small block Ford distributor if simplicity is your game.

I apologize for derailing the OP's thread and am sympathetic to his situation. Were I in his shoes, given his original goals for the use of the car, I would have "rode the LS wave" so I could enjoy driving instead of owning a garage/shop ornament.

[Gach]

Thats the new trend LS motors in original GTO’s there’s tons of them out there YouTube is full of them. Of course its not for everyone. But I can understand the check writers doing it. Its definitely a different Pontiac world out there. Hey to each his own, what ever floats your boat.

[geeteeohguy]

Originally Posted by NeighborsComplaint

You missed the point. You could argue you made the same trip in a Model A Ford. You have a bone stock Pontiac as-built by the factory with components capable of a 100,000+ mile life and made be driven wherever a road is paved. You have by every definition a street-car that can be driven anywhere they sell gas but, does your car have the performance of an LS?

In order to match the performance of that LS, your car would have its antique behemoth of an engine propped up by a lumpy aftermarket roller cam and lifters, spring pressures to handle the aggressive lift and heavy valve train, aftermarket roller rockers, aluminum aftermarket heads, aftermarket distributor and ignition. Since the motor would no longer be tractable, a loose convertor, tall gears and a modified Turbo400 trans or an aftermarket overdrive trans would have to be fitted.

Try your trip in one of those so-called street cars and the average, weekend mechanic better keep Enterprise on speed dial, they pick you up.

Correctly performed, swapping in a modest LS engine provides the same level of performance along with the reliability of factory engineered components, longevity and real-world gas mileage. In the O/P's case in particular, the time he has spent behind the wheel would be measured in months instead of minutes. An LS swap can even be carbureted and run a small block Ford distributor if simplicity is your game.

I apologize for derailing the OP's thread and am sympathetic to his situation. Were I in his shoes, given his original goals for the use of the car, I would have "rode the LS wave" so I could enjoy driving instead of owning a garage/shop ornament.

Ask Derek Bieri how his LS swap is working out for him on the Power Tour. He ended up having to give up and buy a 1966 Ford pickup with analog technology in order to continue.
I disagree: I have driven LS powered cars and they don't have the 445 pounds of torque my old stock 400 has. They need to downshift to get up those steep grades. I've driven my dinosaur to Yellowstone, Grand Canyon, Mesa Verde, all over the place for the last 40 years at high speeds and in relative comfort and no down-side. I have zero need to ad a complex, failure-prone, soul-less powerplant to my classic cars. If I want the new car experience, I'll drive a new car.

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by NeighborsComplaint

You missed the point. You could argue you made the same trip in a Model A Ford. You have a bone stock Pontiac as-built by the factory with components capable of a 100,000+ mile life and made be driven wherever a road is paved. You have by every definition a street-car that can be driven anywhere they sell gas but, does your car have the performance of an LS?

In order to match the performance of that LS, your car would have its antique behemoth of an engine propped up by a lumpy aftermarket roller cam and lifters, spring pressures to handle the aggressive lift and heavy valve train, aftermarket roller rockers, aluminum aftermarket heads, aftermarket distributor and ignition. Since the motor would no longer be tractable, a loose convertor, tall gears and a modified Turbo400 trans or an aftermarket overdrive trans would have to be fitted.

Try your trip in one of those so-called street cars and the average, weekend mechanic better keep Enterprise on speed dial, they pick you up.

Correctly performed, swapping in a modest LS engine provides the same level of performance along with the reliability of factory engineered components, longevity and real-world gas mileage. In the O/P's case in particular, the time he has spent behind the wheel would be measured in months instead of minutes. An LS swap can even be carbureted and run a small block Ford distributor if simplicity is your game.

I apologize for derailing the OP's thread and am sympathetic to his situation. Were I in his shoes, given his original goals for the use of the car, I would have "rode the LS wave" so I could enjoy driving instead of owning a garage/shop ornament.

None of that is true. To match the performance of a LS ? Do you know how easy it is to get 450-500HP out of a Pontiac ? You can use iron heads, not so lumpy cam, stock intake, Q jet, points and it is FAR more reliable than a LS if you know what you are doing and spend the time and money.
More tech, more wires, sensors has its benefits but a downside. More things to break and you have to take the time to learn about fixing problems or pay someone big bucks to fix it.
And if you want to up the power with aluminum heads, roller cam, FI ect you can. And you car is still cool and not lame and weak.
IMO if you want to jack up your car and give it a soulless engine, stuff a LS in it.
Better yet, keep a Pontiac in it or sell it to someone with the intent of keeping a Pontiac in it.

[64speed]

Dont yall blaspheme in here

[tom s]

FYI!Calif cars rust from the inside out!Most all after years have front and rear windows that leak.On the front the water goes behind the firewall pads and settels in the foot pans and rust out.The rear goes under the trunk mats and rust the trunk pans out and a lot of time take out the rear frame mounts.Buyers beware!Tom

[PAUL K]

Remember when the LS Corvette engines were dropping valves all the time and literally grenading the engines? We fixed a chit ton of those heads. Everyone wanted them repaired "just incase"...... Don't recall the old Pontiac engine having that issue.

[Dragncar]

They are soulless and the easy way out for someone not good enough or smart enough to build a reliable high powered street engine. It takes a certain amount of tenacity, intestinal fortitude to stay the course and is a quality I highly respect.
This is the largest Pontiac forum on earth.
The Pontiac platform might just well get beat by Chevy, Ford and Mopar on most of the high end racing spectrum.
But the Pontiac platform is the best on the street.
Now my wife knows how I am about this subject. She does have to live with me as I spend lots of money on my car.
But she knows in a instant when a new Pontiac shows up at the track if its a Pontiac, by the sound the engine makes.
They must make that sound a Pontiac makes to be cool in her book. I married a good one.

Being a fan of the Pontiac is all about the engine, the engine,the engine. The rest is just a shell the same as Chevy, Olds and Buick.

[64speed]

My FIL has a 68 Camaro with and an LS3 that has been nothing but a pain in the ass. Mostly from expense of parts and tune perspective. With my first engine I could TOTALLY bust his ass from a stand still or a roll. Caster1 doesn’t post on here very much but he has my exact engine combo almost and he’s put over 10k miles on it. My truck of course has an LM7 5.3 and it’s great but it is soulless. I had a 2002 Camaro SS. Fast as hell but soulless. I got all the creature comforts I want in my Tempest (PW AC etc).

[64speed]

I have a Butler/Ross all forged rotation assembly. I have the Edelbrock round port heads and everything is studded. The first iteration cracked the lifter bores on the number 2 cylinder. The 2nd engine had a pinhole in one of the cylinder and the block has now been sleeved. That will be my only concern as I know anything can happen but I have faith in my rotating assembly. So many people have blasted my engine "blow ups". The first one was TOTALLY my fault despite what a few people have said. That SOB revved to the damn moon before I even knew what had happened. I think you would be hard pressed to find any street build that could have survived it without really high end lifters and bore braces and all that. This engine failure was a fluke. My machinist was incredibly supportive and even though he has no obligation he took it back and is repairing it as a free job. All new bearings and gaskets and sleeve etc. Basically a total rebuild again reusing only my crank rods and pistons. I cant really complain about that. The only thing I can complain about is his speed which I understand is being done on nights and weekends cause its not a paying job.

[grivera]

What a timely topic - this was just posted on the Pontiac Engine Design and Theory page on FB by someone named Uzek Susol who drives his 67 Firebird on vacations 5-7000 miles per trip: https://www.facebook.com/groups/pont...ibextid=W9rl1R

“Hi all, this is my 67 Firebird 400 that my wife & I use primarily as our vacation car. Most summers we take a few weeks & put 5-7,000 miles per trip. Currently it has 30,000 miles on a rebuild on the stock matching #'s flat top piston 400 with the addition of a large duration/high lift cam, 7/16" screw in studs, 1.5 full roller rockers, wideband O2 sensor tuned 800 CFM Quadrajet, DUI HEI, Dougs headers, Tremec 5 speed. Over the last trip I started to have a lifter noise between 1,200 & 1,800RPM which would not adjust out. I have talked with Butler at length & just recieved their package with the below contents. I'll set the original 670 heads aside looking at the aluminum heads as a slight performance upgrade & more freindly with todays questionable fuels while retaining the same compression ratio. Im looking for reliability as we are sometimes 5 plus States away from home. I will be using the stock cast iron 67 intake manifold as I have functional Ram Air air cleaner, hood panel & have opened up the factory hood vents, Butler advised the Edelbrock RPM manifold but it sits taller than the stock one & the regular Performer does not flow as well as the stock 67 intake as I understand. Any words of advice/tips before or during teardown on this 400? I am an ASE Certified Automotive Tech by trade for the last 35 years so the process does not concern me just looking for any Pontiac tips from Pontiac people. Thank you.

1 EDL-61595-2; Pontiac 72cc DPORT
Edelbrock Heads -
Complete (Pair) **Hyd Roller
(Double Spring)**
2 CCA-BP8020SP; Butler/Comp
SP Street Performance Billet
Roller Cam (HR) 276/282,
224/230, .503/.510, 112LS (Std
Firing Order/ Std Journals)
3 NIC-10120-STD; Pontiac Pro
Billet Timing Set - Billet Gears 9
Keyway Crank Sprocket
w/Bronze bushing on cam gear
4 ARP-190-3609; Pontiac Head
Bolt Kit For Edelbrock DPORT/
Performer Cylinder Heads
5 ABO-KIT-IM; Intake Manifold Bolt
Kit, 65-79 Hex Head Stainless
Steel w/washers
6 SPM-11765; Pontiac 5/16" Thick
High Density Valve Cover Gasket
Set/2
7 SPM-19374; Pontiac 400-455 BP
Head Gaskets (can be used on
350's also) (Set)
8 BPI-Gasket-Header-DP; Butler DPort
Header Gasket, *2.120 X
1.540*, Large Port fits Factory
and Aftermarket Set
June 7, 2023 2:19:40 PM CDT Page 2 of 4
THANKFPR-1233; Pontiac Fel-Pro
Standard Intake Gasket /
Includes Heat X-over Block Off
(Set)
10 CCA-7902; Adjustable Pushrod
Length Checker 5/16 (8.500-
9.800)
11 JLI-2112OPR-16; Johnson
Lifters, Pontiac Lifter Set, Hi-Perf
Hydraulic Roller, 326-455, Set/16
12 BOP-PDG37; Pontiac 301-455
Polymer Dist. Gear -0.491
13 BPI-M54DS-PRO-KIT; B.P PRO
60psi Oil Pump w/pick up and
copper gaskets(gasket taped to
lid/flap of box)
14 BPI-M54DS-PRO-PUMP-ONLY;
B.P PRO 60psi Oil Pump w/pick
up and copper gaskets(gasket
taped to lid/flap of box
15 ASC-3/8 HI Collar Lock Washer
LW; ASC-3/8 HI Collar Lock
Washer LW
16 ASC-3/8-16 x 1 1/2 HHCS GR8;
3/8-16 x 1 1/2 HHCS GR8
17 BOP-RMS18; Pontiac 3.00" Main
DUAL LIP Viton 1 Piece Rear
Main Seal
18 LPI-1P9001; Camshaft Thrust
Plate (high load aluminum nickel
bronze material)”

[64speed]

Assembly began today

[Dragncar]

Hope all goes well. Get her back on the road where she belongs.

[grivera]

Excellent!

[64speed]

Got my CDI box mounted. The wires don’t look that bad when the engines in and they are all hooked up in looms. I am gonna be back on the road as soon as I can get some help.

[64speed]

Got the engine back today. Dont know when I will be able to get it put in. Hopefully in a week or two.