[400 4spd.]

I think 18" is pretty much the standard minimum. Less may be considered a weapon of mass destruction in this state, so lot's of guys go with 18.5".

[lust4speed]

All you have to do is Google to find out that it is a federal law that the barrel minimum is 18" with an overall minimum weapon length of 26". States could be more stringent, but I didn't find any. If the feds drop in their "precision bar" and it sticks out even .001" - then it's jail time and up to $100,000 fine unless you have the proper tax stamps (always funny that anything is OK as long as the government gets their cut). All of the defense shotguns I have seen for sale have always had a minimum of 18.5" length barrel - best not to leave your future to a cross eyed federal agent that might see your 18" barrel as 17.9".

[tempest455]

Mossberg makes an 18.5" 12 ga. w/ a pistol, AR15 style stock for home defense and just for this application.

[JLHarper]

I wonder oif anyone is keeping records on CCL holders and how many accidents happened?

The class I took had a few that should not have had their hands on a firearm, let alone being licensed to carry.

They went out and bought a high dollar semi automatic but was not proficient at all, not even the basics.

One lady beside me ejected the full clip while on the firing line, plus a few other mistakes including accidential discharge of a chambered round...she had no idea how it worked I dont think.

You know what they did? Gave her a CCL.

Jeff

[Brian Baker]

Originally Posted by JLHarper

I wonder oif anyone is keeping records on CCL holders and how many accidents happened?

The class I took had a few that should not have had their hands on a firearm, let alone being licensed to carry.

They went out and bought a high dollar semi automatic but was not proficient at all, not even the basics.

One lady beside me ejected the full clip while on the firing line, plus a few other mistakes including accidential discharge of a chambered round...she had no idea how it worked I dont think.

You know what they did? Gave her a CCL.

Jeff

I doubt the FBI is keeping statistics on accidental shootings by CCL holders seperate from accidental shootings by anyone in general...they're probably lumped together.

And when you want to criticize someone elses proficiency, first get the terminology correct...it's a magazine, not a "clip".

[mzbk2l]

Originally Posted by JLHarper

I wonder if anyone is keeping records on CCL holders and how many accidents happened?

Most states track it individually. Not all states release the data. Here are two that do:

http://www.azdps.gov/Services/Concea...ns/Statistics/

http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,1607,7...7621--,00.html

[JLHarper]

A slip of the tounge you pointed out does not detract from the valadity of the point being made.

Clip/Magazine....most (that own a firearm) knew what I meant.

PLUS.....she was shooting a Broom Handle Mauser......lol.....(not really)

Jeff

PS: I know "someone" is tracking CCL holders: shootings, accidents. Havent found out whom, yet.
It would be probably be on the anti gun side, bty

[Brian Baker]

Originally Posted by JLHarper

A slip of the tounge you pointed out does not detract from the valadity of the point being made.

Clip/Magazine....most (that own a firearm) knew what I meant.

PLUS.....she was shooting a Broom Handle Mauser......lol.....(not really)

Jeff

PS: I know "someone" is tracking CCL holders: shootings, accidents. Havent found out whom, yet.
It would be probably be on the anti gun side, bty

Just busting your stones.

If the FBI is breaking down accidental shootings into seperate categories to determine how many were CCL holders, I don't see how any left-wing anti-gun organization would be able to compile statistics on accidental shootings by CCL holders.

The FBI does however compile statistics on CCL holders committing felonies, but the percentage is somewhere around 1% (and they don't state whether or not a firearm was used in the commission of said felony, I don't believe).

[tempest455]

Unless you are shooting an MI Garand and feeding a "clip", it's a "magazine"!

[Cliff R]

"One lady beside me ejected the full clip while on the firing line, plus a few other mistakes including accidential discharge of a chambered round...she had no idea how it worked I dont think."

For those with ZERO experience with handguns, it should be manditory that they start out with a revolver. Auto loading pistols are simply too complicated, too many moving parts, and too many things to go wrong when you will need it the most. The last thing some young gal needs to worry about is the safety, decocking lever, is a round chambered?, magazine fully inserted, slide all the way forward, etc, etc, when she is going to need to use it.

What makes me cringe is the fact that folks purchase and load up these auto-loading pistols, probably in their homes, and I know that they do NOT have a clearing station (55 gallon drum full of sand, for example) in which to safely do so.

The anti-gun activists LOVE it when folks have accidental miss-fires, especially when an innocent bystander is struck and seriously injured or killed......Cliff

[lust4speed]

We've seen these people all our lives. I believe the first large group I was exposed to was at the first range day in basic training - just plain scary. It just goes to show you that while Darwin might be correct, it's still taking too long to weed these people out.

Some people should not have been allowed to get their driver's license, never mind a CCW permit. I've seen individuals never hit the target during qualifying for their CCW permit - and the silhouette is only 5 yards away. These are the same people that swing the loaded weapon around to ask a question. I hope that the range instructor took the time to instill some basic safety principles in these individuals, but I can't say because I shoot my course and get out of there as quick as I can.

Cliff, from what I remember you cannot have a clearing drum unless it is positioned where both the sun and the rain can beat down on everyone waiting in a long and slow moving line - or at least that's what the military figured.

[Cliff R]

Agreed, the "clearing station" comment was more for humor than anything else....but you still have to wonder when and where the gal who can't find her ars with both hands at the range, loads up her new semi-auto pistol when preparing it for an outing?

Certainly I hope she has a dirt floor in the basement!

I taught as a range instructor for two decades, I've seen them all, but have NEVER had one single incident the entire time. I run a very tight range, and will throw you out in a micro second for any infraction that relates to safety, or failing to follow any command, or even directions provided in the "Pre-Fire" class.

Kind of interesting, but we saw a SERIOUS decline in the ability of Reservists to qualify after 9-11, right before they were getting shipped over to Iran or Afganistan for their periods of Active Duty.....hum....wonder why?

I would walk up to them on the firing line between stages, and tell them that if they did not qualify, I would make sure that instead of standing security or guard duty, they would be unloading trucks, aircraft, and ships in the hot desert sun, but either way they were going on deployment, qualified or not. Better to be armed in a country where everyone is potentially hostile anyhow, at least I'd want to be.

In any case, their scores would improve dramatically on the very next string of fire. I never let a single person leave the range that wasn't fully qualified, unless their name was Darwin!.....LOL......Cliff

[71 T/A]

An 11-year old died in Fort Lauderdale yesterday when he was accidentally shot by his brother who found their dad's gun in his truck. I have a 10-year old and it's why I don't have a gun. For protection, the gun needs to be readily accessible and if it is, your kid or kid's friend may find it.

[tempest455]

Originally Posted by 71 T/A

An 11-year old died in Fort Lauderdale yesterday when he was accidentally shot by his brother who found their dad's gun in his truck. I have a 10-year old and it's why I don't have a gun. For protection, the gun needs to be readily accessible and if it is, your kid or kid's friend may find it.

That's terrible! But is a good example of why both my kids (8 and 11) know how to shoot and clear and saftey a gun.

[Jim Scites]

Originally Posted by tempest455

That's terrible! But is a good example of why both my kids (8 and 11) know how to shoot and clear and saftey a gun.

I wasn't going to say anything but at that age both my kids could shoot and knew gun safety. I think it's safer to teach the kids gun safety than to try and hide the guns from them, if they find them then the curiosity factor can get them hurt or killed. It's always a tragedy when children get hurt or killed, not matter the way it happens.

[mike nixon]

Originally Posted by Jim Scites

I wasn't going to say anything but at that age both my kids could shoot and knew gun safety. I think it's safer to teach the kids gun safety than to try and hide the guns from them, if they find them then the curiosity factor can get them hurt or killed. It's always a tragedy when children get hurt or killed, not matter the way it happens.

My opinion exactly. It's the way I was raised and the way I'm raising my kids.


Mike

[Elarson]

Originally Posted by 71 T/A

An 11-year old died in Fort Lauderdale yesterday when he was accidentally shot by his brother who found their dad's gun in his truck. I have a 10-year old and it's why I don't have a gun. For protection, the gun needs to be readily accessible and if it is, your kid or kid's friend may find it.

The owner of a loaded gun should either have it fully under direct control (on his person) or have it locked up. Leaving it someplace "handy" like in a car (or a women's purse, etc.) opens up this possibility.

IMHO,
Eric

[71 T/A]

Originally Posted by Elarson

The owner of a loaded gun should either have it fully under direct control (on his person) or have it locked up. Leaving it someplace "handy" like in a car (or a women's purse, etc.) opens up this possibility.

IMHO,
Eric

That really is my point. I don't feel I need a gun, but if I had one, I would keep it on me or in a good hidden spot under lock and key.

In the case where the father leaves the gun in his truck, he is totally to blame. What if he was getting his truck's oil changed, someone steals the gun and commits a crime. It's the same deal. Irresponsible people like that shouldn't have guns.

[Jim Scites]

Originally Posted by Elarson

The owner of a loaded gun should either have it fully under direct control (on his person) or have it locked up. Leaving it someplace "handy" like in a car (or a women's purse, etc.) opens up this possibility.

IMHO,
Eric

Let's see, I have a gun in my house and it's locked up where the children can't get to it, someone breaks into the house and starts to harm my children, or my wife... Do I call the police and tell them to hurry, my daughter is getting beaten? or tell them to "Hold on a minute while I find the keys to unlock the safe to get my gun."? Or do I reach into the night stand and end all this right now? I choose #3. Keeping a gun locked up and unloaded is like having an antique car that you can't buy gas for or be able to drive.
ANY child getting hurt or killed is a terrible tragedy, but more children get hurt or killed on bicycles or skateboards that with guns and we don't hear anyone calling for banning bikes or skateboards.

[Elarson]

Originally Posted by Jim Scites

Let's see, I have a gun in my house and it's locked up where the children can't get to it, someone breaks into the house and starts to harm my children, or my wife... Do I call the police and tell them to hurry, my daughter is getting beaten? or tell them to "Hold on a minute while I find the keys to unlock the safe to get my gun."? Or do I reach into the night stand and end all this right now? I choose #3. Keeping a gun locked up and unloaded is like having an antique car that you can't buy gas for or be able to drive.
ANY child getting hurt or killed is a terrible tragedy, but more children get hurt or killed on bicycles or skateboards that with guns and we don't hear anyone calling for banning bikes or skateboards.

Let's see....when you get up and leave the bedroom in the morning, do you leave the gun loaded and unattended? Or do you control it somehow?

Just curious,
Eric