[LiL Jack]

Originally Posted by johnta1

And I got some butter to sell you.



Just who exactly asked and how many of your entourage was there?

I will shove that butter up your azz!

Just sayn

[johnta1]

I will shove that butter up your azz!

Just sayn

And you guys wonder why no one takes you seriously?
(or want to work with you?)

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by LiL Jack

I will shove that butter up your azz!

Just sayn

Originally Posted by johnta1

And you guys wonder why no one takes you seriously?
(or want to work with you?)

John,
I would worry about what follows the butter. Just sayn

Stan

[David Holmberg]

Originally Posted by mgarblik

I have to repeat what brought the Edelbrock head to the market in the first place again. Eric and I have been to every PRI show since it started. Every year, Beswick, Eric and I would corner Vic Jr. and just hard sell him on the idea of making a Pontiac aluminum head. We brought pictures of the Wenzler heads, the ONLY aftermarket head available. Year 1, we got rolling eyes from Vic. The next year, we brought more evidence and news that an aftermarket Pontiac block was being discussed. We brought pictures of Arnies Fuel factory blocks. We tried to show the strength of the POCI and how dedicated Pontiac racers were and how handcuffed they were by rare, expensive and aging iron heads. We were met again with all the reasons they would never sell in enough numbers to even break even. Around the 4th year of relentless badgering by Arnie and us including several trips to CA by Beswick. The following year at PRI Vic told us he had an engineer who had been working on small block Ford heads and would see if he could adapt some of the cores and basic design features to make a small run of low cost castings for the "Pontiac Nuts". The next year they had the first RPM head on display at PRI. I was standing right there in the booth when Vic Jr. told Arnie, "Arnie, I don't know why we went ahead and ran 100 sets of these heads. We won't sell these out in the next 10 years. Consider this a favor for being so loyal to Pontiac and being such a pain in the ass to me" That's how it came down folks, it was cool to be there. It shows once again, how much Beswick has done behind the scenes and how much respect he has from the vendors and the other big shots in the industry. Vic made these heads with the intention of maybe breaking even if they got lucky. So I wouldn't go as far as to say they don't care about us at all. I would say they care a little, especially, if money can be made. It also explains why the RPM head has a Ford combustion chamber. Little real engineering time was spent on the original head because they thought they would be sitting on the shelf forever. We proved them wrong and they outperformed their design by a huge margin. I do agree with others here who feel the Pro Port is too late to the party. With the Warp 6, Ram Air V, and Hemi possibilities, we are moving past the basic inline design just as Pontiac engineers were doing in the late 60's.

Mike, thank you for the information, I never knew the whole story.

Back in the 90's on this board (and others) the E-heads were bashed to no end.
Drag radials were bashed, "only good for SBC cars", etc. Rear mount turbo systems were bashed, just about everything new is bashed until it proves itself as a winner.

The only negative comment I've heard about the Warp 6 is the look (not being OEM), never the performance.

The track always determines the winners and the losers in products and builders.

[Tom Vaught]

Wallace would last about 38 seconds "In the ring" with Little Jack, UNLESS.

Those Plumber's "Helpers" are about 18" long (about as long as a Roman "Short Sword")

Head gear & trash cans for shields, for both competitors, along with the Plumber's Helpers and lets GET IT ON at Norwalk next year.

Tom Vaught

[johnta1]

Bullies never worried me.

[Tom Vaught]

Don't think Jack is a Bully, just a Plumber with a very fast car.

Tom Vaught

Your ever sell those turbos? Real nice 1200 hp dual turbo combo.

[johnta1]

Still got 'em.

[Skip Fix]

Mike thanks for the info.

I ordered my second set of E heads right after they ran out of the first run-didn't want to hammer/port on the RAIVs for a higher HP motor for my first set. And I had KRE hand port the first set before anyone had a CNC, they even CNC ported my second set. But that was before I was black listed.

George why my chronology on their head design is not perfect-eventhough I think the High Ports are a good head and got a set "boot legged" to me for a future upgrade on my IA motor.

[Aaron Quinton]

Hi Stan,

It's good to hear from you again. I'm good, how have you been doing?

I like the hemi you pictured. I don't like the combustion efficiency when you have to dome it to get compression and then increase the flame travel distance. I like the high squish chambers typical with compound canted valve designs, they are pretty efficient.

I don't think my point come across well in my original post. Marcella is great and an awesome job on his heads and engine. My point was I don't think the PP head will ever sell many due to the costs of the finished product. If someone develops a CNC program and makes a LOT of them, then maybe. But the cost will still be high.

If someone was going to spend big development time and $ in head, I would think there is more potential in a Warp6. That's the way I'd go if I had more time, and more importantly more $!.

Aaron

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

Hi Aaron,
How have you been? I do not know what John would do, but I do not think there is enough metal to rotate the valve around to where I would want them. While this picture is not exactly what I would do it, it is somewhat similar and takes me back to my youth when my father had a polyshere engine.

Stan

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by Aaron Quinton

Hi Stan,

It's good to hear from you again. I'm good, how have you been doing?

I like the hemi you pictured. I don't like the combustion efficiency when you have to dome it to get compression and then increase the flame travel distance. I like the high squish chambers typical with compound canted valve designs, they are pretty efficient.

I don't think my point come across well in my original post. Marcella is great and an awesome job on his heads and engine. My point was I don't think the PP head will ever sell many due to the costs of the finished product. If someone develops a CNC program and makes a LOT of them, then maybe. But the cost will still be high.

If someone was going to spend big development time and $ in head, I would think there is more potential in a Warp6. That's the way I'd go if I had more time, and more importantly more $!.

Aaron

Aaron,
Thanks, I am doing well. I have not been able to find a picture of the combustion chamber and am not sure from the top view one can tell that the valves are not as inclined as a hemi design. It has a smaller chamber than a hemi would have so much less dome is needed for very high CR's. Of course the reduced incline angle does as a side effect increased vertical valve movement some and decreased horizontal move some.

Stan

[estep455]

Originally Posted by LiL Jack

That is the question a lot of people are talking and waiting to see who is going to be the first to jump and try it!

not the first! those im sure will be dons, but we will be running them and it will be out in the public as to how they perform and i will also be going over the switch from my e heads to the ra v heads. i personally cant wait to get started! this head is going to be an awesome improvement over what i have now. danny

[mike leech]

Originally Posted by estep455

not the first! those im sure will be dons, but we will be running them and it will be out in the public as to how they perform and i will also be going over the switch from my e heads to the ra v heads. i personally cant wait to get started! this head is going to be an awesome improvement over what i have now. danny

Keep us posted! good luck

[BruceWilkie]

IF the pro-port can beat the tiger consistantly in same application it may be worth the investment IF you are class racing and rules penalize excessively for canted or hemi type heads... otherwise why spend alot of $$$$$ for it?(in the past and there may still be classes where the RA5 was often not allowed or penalized as if it were a canted valve or hemi)

IF Pro port can be done that equals the tiger for similar money perhaps brand loyalty and customer service become the deciding factor. IF Pro-port is physically stronger or runs cooler that too should be a deciding factor.

IMO TOO MANY Pontiac people fear the unknown and instead of fully exploring the technical aspects of a product simply rely on hearsay and past reputation. You aint going to win if you have the same parts as your competitor. Who the hell wants to settle for "same as"?

Unfortunately too many among us are like the kids in the Life cereal commercial..." I'm not going to try it, you try it, hey get Mike'y to try it"... And then same folks wonder why we are 10 plus years behind the Ford and Chevy guys... I do understand some of the reasons why, but I still think many need to open their minds a bit.

I look at it this way...I dont NEED a proven product I need a product that has potential to give me an advantage and prove itself as I work with it.

fwiw the Pro-port casting I saw appeared to be a better aluminum than Tiger and was a decent quality casting... maybe someone else has noticed...Tigers appear greyer to me, and I couldnt tell you if its softer/harder or exact alloy/heat treat. It was a very early piece(test piece perhaps) and did have the plug boss in a less than safe location...(too close to ex port basically) THAT was corrected quickly may have only been a few heads ...unfortunately I wasnt aware of the fix and my alarm at the time was heavily criticized...some should be ashamed of themselves I honestly WAS lookin out for Pontiac enthusiasts despite how some spun it.

[cgeise]

Bruce --
While I understand your point I think it needs to be said that many here speak from experience- trying to run on the leading edge just be be burned as far a paying for the development of a "prodject" and not getting sufficient bang for the buck. Is it better to sacrifice 2%, 4% or even more to get a proven good performing package ?? Many would say yes. Racing has always been about inovation and development for the sake of improvement but as the cost of labor go north of 125 bucks an Hour and or 3000 bucks for a set of blank heads, many will wait for the "hard stuff to be done by others" and reap the rewards both finacialy and HP wise. I do agree that Edelbrock makes some very nice castings -- always has --

[mgarblik]

Edelbrock has been making a big deal about their HIP process used in the pro-port castings. This high frequency vibration process during the curing of the casting is supposed to greatly relieve internal stress, produce a casting with much higher density, and machine like a billet. I have not actually machined a casting with this process, so someone who has worked with the pro-ports chime in about the casting quality and how it behaves when ported and machined. I have machined 3 sets of Tiger heads and many sets of Edelbrock RPM heads, and in my opinion, the Tiger heads are much better castings. Clean aluminum, easy to weld, grind, cut for seats. I have had some issues trying to repair the Edelbrock RPM heads.

[65nss4spdGTO]

Originally Posted by mgarblik

Edelbrock has been making a big deal about their HIP process used in the pro-port castings. This high frequency vibration process during the curing of the casting is supposed to greatly relieve internal stress, produce a casting with much higher density, and machine like a billet. I have not actually machined a casting with this process, so someone who has worked with the pro-ports chime in about the casting quality and how it behaves when ported and machined. I have machined 3 sets of Tiger heads and many sets of Edelbrock RPM heads, and in my opinion, the Tiger heads are much better castings. Clean aluminum, easy to weld, grind, cut for seats. I have had some issues trying to repair the Edelbrock RPM heads.

I can honestly say they are better then some Pontiac castings, but not the best. Anyone that's wants to spend a fun afternoon, dry deck a set CVs.

Calvin Hill
Hill Performance
708-250-7420

[cfmcnc]

Heavilly welded Tigers saw substantionally less distortion than Pro-ports .Nobodys assleep at Allpontiac or here ,New stuff coming ,development dollars are thin but forward progress is being made.Bill C.

[johnta1]

trying to run on the leading edge just be be burned as far a paying for the development of a "prodject" and not getting sufficient bang for the buck.

The problem I see here is that if you're wanting to be on the leading edge and going fast, you should be the one doing the 'legwork', not the manufacturer?

[GTO Dan]

Originally Posted by johnta1

The problem I see here is that if you're wanting to be on the leading edge and going fast, you should be the one doing the 'legwork', not the manufacturer?

Aren't KRE, Butler and AllPointiac on the cutting edge of their stuff? Both in the beginning and ongoing in the Pontiac World? I won't even go into CFE, Dart, World, Kasse, Indy, etc.