[SupergasDil]

Grandville,

Let me get this straight, you're telling me if I have an engine built by a shop that I should disassemble it to check all of the tollerances ? Or did I misunderstand you?

Let's say I don't do body and paint. That's why I take my car to be worked on and painted by a professional with a booth so I can have a nice straight shiny paint job that will last for years. I'm not going to cut into the paint when I get my car back to make sure he put the right amount of primer on and then 5 coats of paint and 3 coats of clear.

If I'm not an engine guy there is no way I would buy a $15,000 crate engine with the intent of pulling the engine apart when it arrived. Yes I understand that's a lot of money and you want to make sure it's ok. One of my buddies just bought a Shafiroff 598 carb to pan, dynoed 842 hp delivered to his house, bolted it in and he's hauling buns. He didn't plan on pulling the engine apart before he bolted it in. Does that make him a dummy ? No He's not an engine builder, that's why he hired a PROFESSIONALLY BUILT ENGINE FROM A TRUSTWORTHY SHOP.

[SupergasDil]

Is anyone planning on attending the Tech Talk given by Bruce Fulper of Rock n Roll Engineering at the upcoming POCI convention?

Does anyone know what the topic is going to be ?

I was just wondering, if he thinks we're all stupid, why would he waste his time trying to teach us something ? And I understand he's paying POCI $1,000 to do it. It just doesn't make sense to me. Oh I forgot, my mistake, I'm one of the stupid ones, sorry.

[455Grandville]

Originally Posted by SupergasDil

Grandville,

Let me get this straight, you're telling me if I have an engine built by a shop that I should disassemble it to check all of the tollerances

It depends, If you really trust the shop and know they do A + work, and they will back the work, you probably dont have to.
If you did pay them to assemble it (assembly can run $500.00 +) then you shouldnt have to, but I you might want to check it as a pre cautionary step just to make sure.
I might get into argument on this , but realitive had a Jasper AMC 360 installed. The shop didnt check the motor because "Jasper rebuilds are the best" Went through 3 engines, and even with a Nationwide Warranty it was still a major pain in the ass when his Wagoneer blew the second one in Mississippi, on a family vacation, 1000 miles from home.

[Blackcat]

Originally Posted by SupergasDil

Is anyone planning on attending the Tech Talk given by Bruce Fulper of Rock n Roll Engineering at the upcoming POCI convention?

Does anyone know what the topic is going to be ?

I was just wondering, if he thinks we're all stupid, why would he waste his time trying to teach us something ? And I understand he's paying POCI $1,000 to do it. It just doesn't make sense to me. Oh I forgot, my mistake, I'm one of the stupid ones, sorry.

I personally wonder what Someone with such a Dubious background might do to gather more people to scam?
As far as I've known Fulper takes others credit for things.
So I suspect that he may have lots of hecklers.
(I'd love to be there to help)

[hurryinhoosier62]

Let's start this with a CLEAR, UNEQUIVOCAL statement: I am NOT defending
Bruce Fulper. Now, to the matters at hand. Axle, I have NEVER claimed the
gift of omniscience. I leave that to God Almighty. He's much better at it.
I based my judgements on MY EXPERIENCE! If someone does right by me, I'll
go back to that person or company. If they screw me over,Hell will freeze over before I'll work with them again. The statements I have seen here do
give me cause for reflection. I ,my friends and acquaintances have either been very lucky in our dealings with Fulper or he is extremely inconsistant.
Axle, I have lived in several states (IN,KY,TN,OH,TX,SC,WI and KS). Fraud is a
CRIME in all these states. If you have evidence of a crime,it is YOUR responsibility to report it to the proper authorities,even in CA. Has anyone
contacted the AG's office (Attorney General)? They handle most fraud cases.
Dragrcr, how would I have these names and numbers? Have you heard of a
thing called "friends"?As to when I joined this website, take a look at the
directory. You might still find my "old" handle,HurryinHoosier, listed. You see,
my wife and I moved here to Wisconsin in 2005. We changed IPs and
our e-mail address. When I wanted to sign back on, the @#$%&!??!! administrator of this site would NEVER return my e-mails. So, I had to start all
over again. Ron,good point. You NEVER turn amateurs lose with mics. It takes
a lot of experience to learn to read them correctly. Granville455,AMEN, brother,AMEN!! One of my best friends has been an engine builder for 50yrs.
He drilled into my head to ALWAYS CHECK,CHECK and DOUBLE-CHECK. He also
taught me "New does not mean Good". When he assembles an engine, he checks EVERY tolerance twice inspite of the fact HE does 90% of his own
machine work. Every new part is cleaned,inspected and measured before he
uses it. NO EXECPTIONS! If that part does not meet spec,it is rejected. That's
how I was taught. It has gotten me into trouble over the years. Brad, I worked for Jasper Engines for 5years. They usually build a good product. I used to
"butt heads" with management over quality vs. production quotas. When you
build over 50,000 engines a year, some "lemons" are going to get through.
I don't when your relative had their problems, but when I worked there(1997-
2002) Doug Bawel, CEO, would have had someone's gonads on a silver platter
if he knew about 2 failures in a row. Supergas Dil, No I don't expect you to
disassemble an engine to inspect it. I,like Granville455, do assume if you build your own engines, you'll check all tolerances. It's just the SMART this to do.
Granville455, you're a Darksider. Check out the Fullsize Pontiac Club website.

[455Grandville]

Like I said wasnt trying to cause friction with anyone. Ive seen alot of sloppy repairs done by "Fly by night" engine repair places.
At my first auto machine shop job when I was 18 in 1988, we had several customers bring us in some connecting rods from a competitor. They had been honed or resized at a slight angle. One guys Chevy short block took 130 ft pds to turn over !
While this took place my friends dad was putting in a rebuilt 351 for his wifes towncar. He went with this 2 bit shop to save money. I called him to inform him he better check the work that shop had done. He pretty much regarded me as a stupid 18 yr old kid and put the motor in anyway. Well, all I know is he had to take it out for the same reason.
My whole point on this "inspection" thing is you could save alot of time & agrevation: My friends dad, although a hardhead spent a whole weekend dropping in a engine in 100 + deg humid weather in for nothing. If he had spent even 5 minutes & tried to spin the shortblock over, he wouldnt have wasted a whole weekend.
As far as Jasper goes, I cant say they do bad work. A population sample of 3 is not enough data to conclude 50,000 + engines.
Just keep the inspection thing in mind guys, and pick the shop carefully, ask around.

[Ron]

OK guys.......Group Hug.....lets put this to bed and stick with the original subject at hand......please!!

Jeez...I can't believe I wrote that.

[455Grandville]

Originally Posted by Ron

OK guys.......Group Hug.....lets put this to bed and stick with the original subject at hand......please!!

Jeez...I can't believe I wrote that.

Oh crap, what was the original subject ? LOL

[Ron]

A few years ago I attended an engine building seminar by Ken Crocie. He started out asking the question. What are the three most important items when building an engine???? The answer was and is....dimensions..dimensions..dimensions. It is now apparent that we all get there, some take a different road but we get there just the same.

In my case I don't have the experience or education to build an engine but the words from Ken Crocie had stuck with me. I found a man, Lee Anderson, who had both the experience and education. He built my engine some 16 years ago and it still purrs today. Maybe not the fastest pump gas engine but it sure is reliable. The motor has lots of street miles on it and well over 1000 1/4 mile passes on it to date.

[455Grandville]

Originally Posted by Ron

A few years ago I attended an engine building seminar by Ken Crocie. He started out asking the question. What are the three most important items when building an engine???? The answer was and is....dimensions..dimensions..dimensions. It is now apparent that we all get there, some take a different road but we get there just the same.

In my case I don't have the experience or education to build an engine but the words from Ken Crocie had stuck with me. I found a man, Lee Anderson, who had both the experience and education. He built my engine some 16 years ago and it still purrs today. Maybe not the fastest pump gas engine but it sure is reliable. The motor has lots of street miles on it and well over 1000 1/4 mile passes on it to date.

Well put, the first engine I built in high school was a oddball Jeep OHC 230 "Tornado" . I checked everything, and although the body is shot, that engine still pulls my old Jeep Gladiator pickup around to this day.
I do have a question for this group - has anyone sucessfully sued this guy with anyluck ?
With the amount of money people on here are talking about, its just a matter of time before he does this to the wrong guy and vigilante justice might prevail.

[Ron]

At least one that I know of.

[Brian Baker]

Always trust your machinist and engine builder. If you start second guessing their work by checking it with instruments that may be out of calibration, and then making changes to match your instruments, you could be asking for trouble.

[hurryinhoosier62]

Ron,
This we agree on: Ken Crocie knows his stuff. It would have probably been
cheaper for me to fly Ken to Louisville when I was building my first 400 back
in '86. I had some outrageous phone bills!!!
Brian, I can only speak for myself but I will always double-check any machine
work. It doesn't matter whether I or someone else does it:it will be double-
checked. I guess I'm hard-headed when it comes to that. Besides, I check my mics everytime I use them.

["Puddles the Pontiac"]

hoosier, not many people have the means to check machine work as you do. alot of people here don't trust themselves building an engine, let alone check something as precise as piston to wall clearance or general clearance stacking. i am just now learning the finer details of machine work myself. i want to know this because i want to become a "well known" engine builder one day.i have have the rare privlage to sit in on a pro-mod engine build due to knowing the right people on a personal level. as well as my dad being a great circle track engine builder.

the value of trust is unreal when it come to your machine shop. reputation is all they have to go on and if they a rep like fulper, they should not be in business. small mistakes are one thing, but he has done some things that are just WAY out there for an experienced builder. even if he has done some customers right, he did enough wrong to have a reason not to trust him. period.

there are just too many shops out there with a good reputation to be taking a chance with him.

[RAIV55]

Many people haven't the equipment, the expertese, or the desire to build their own engines. Many also don't have the ability to measure past what plastigage, or feeler guages will tell them. I don't know how it is in the bigger places but around here if a shop does good work the word will get out eventually but if a customer gets hosed, the word spreads like wildfire.

In my opinion the key is to find a shop that several have highly recommended and give that place your trust and hard earned dollars. I like it when a customer comes in the door and the conversation starts with "xxxx told me you are the guys" or "My brother in law, had an engine done here" or "I talked to you at the track about....". It seems at that point the credibility has been established, so the guy can get down to telling you what he wants instead of thinking he's gonna get screwed. Just makes for a better relationship all the way around.

[455Grandville]

I agree the shop should assemble it right, but its never a bad idea to check the work. Consider the time it took you to earn the money for the rebuild (thousands of dollars) and your personal time to reinstall it.
Ive been a machinist for years, and even the best will occasionaly make a error. This just reduces the probability of a error.
As far as machine shops go, choose the best, ask around,how long have they been in buisiness ? .

[axle]

thanks for the group hug ron. i think it was much needed.

not to kick a dead horse but.....changing engine ID numbers (making a 350 into a 400 ~ making a 400 into a 350) , putting an extra $200 on my credit card,installing mismatched parts in expensive engines,placing your rare parts in someone elses engine & visa versa,not receiving what you paid for is wrong and illegal the last time i checked so.......

#1 why and HOW is this guy still in business?

#2 how on earth can someone like this be allowed to do a seminar at the POCI nationals...which is being held on the west coast!

might be time for a coalition and attend this tech / seminar and have everyone speak up!?!

and lastly....i still cant beileve one would be arrogant enough to put down legends like ken crocie & pete mcCARTHY. supergasdil taught me a lot back in the day,and i know he'd say those two were all we had back then as there weren't a lot of knowledgeable pontiac racers 20 years ago. at least not in southern california. maybe times have changed....technology,computers,trial & error,more aftermarket parts and machinery,etc.etc....but you never put down or forget the original guys who started all of this. they are legends in my book!

[455Grandville]

Originally Posted by axle

thanks for the group hug ron. i think it was much needed.



#1 why and HOW is this guy still in business?

#2 how on earth can someone like this be allowed to do a seminar at the POCI nationals...which is being held on the west coast!

might be time for a coalition and attend this tech / seminar and have everyone speak up!?!

and lastly....i still cant beileve one would be arrogant enough to put down legends like ken crocie & pete mcCARTHY. supergasdil taught me a lot back in the day,and i know he'd say those two were all we had back then as there weren't a lot of knowledgeable pontiac racers 20 years ago. at least not in southern california. maybe times have changed....technology,computers,trial & error,more aftermarket parts and machinery,etc.etc....but you never put down or forget the original guys who started all of this. they are legends in my book!

Back in the early 90s there was a shop in Fenton, Mo, off highway 30 called "Engine Masters"
We had fixed alot of their bad work. They were supposed to be a new "high tech" shop with state of the art equipment. A few times the Jefferson County police were called out there because of very angry customers.
One day the shop up & closed. We got to talking with one of the Jefferson County cops one day, who we were building a engine for. He informed us that early one morning some guys with masks ambushed the 2 owners & beat them over the head with lead pipes. One went into a comma and almost died. Several people had lined up to sue these guys. In the end they had to skip town.
If you continue screwing people , eventually youll screw the wrong guy.

[Blackcat]

Originally Posted by 455Grandville

Back in the early 90s there was a shop in Fenton, Mo, off highway 30 called "Engine Masters"
We had fixed alot of their bad work. They were supposed to be a new "high tech" shop with state of the art equipment. A few times the Jefferson County police were called out there because of very angry customers.
One day the shop up & closed. We got to talking with one of the Jefferson County cops one day, who we were building a engine for. He informed us that early one morning some guys with masks ambushed the 2 owners & beat them over the head with lead pipes. One went into a comma and almost died. Several people had lined up to sue these guys. In the end they had to skip town.
If you continue screwing people , eventually youll screw the wrong guy.

Bruce will find that customer soon enough at the rate he's going.
The suprising fact is that it has not happened yet.

[fastgto]

1. Where there`s smoke there`s fire.
2. A hundred different people who live in different area`s all can`t be liars.
3. Years and years of complaints can`t all be wrong.
4. Bragging your the best scares me.
5. Bragging your the best in print really scares me.
6. Bashing your competitor makes me wonder.
7. Insulting the common man burns my ass. { were not all super smart }
8. Calling somebody who is NOT a thief, a thief { on his website } WOW.
9. Was rude to a group of people he was talking to, I was there, UNREAL
10. I`ll stop cause it goes on and on. Yes, I`ve met the man a few times.