[tom s]

I will go back first of the week to see what else Mike finds.Tom

[KEN CROCIE]

What about my favorite, #4 ?

[wbnapier]

The bearings were Clevite Performance, either P or H. My invoice doesn't say which, I can't remember. Both the machinist and Tom are very confident in the diagnosis.

I see damage to the block in one of Tom's photos (attached and circled in red).

Curious what you all think of the block damage and the blocks future prospects.

The spark plug thing is a mystery.

There wasn't a drop of oil leaking. 6.5+ quarts in the engine.

[wbnapier]

The Clevite / Mahle are advertised as narrow on one side for large fillet radius:

https://catalog.mahle-aftermarket.co...52599445131138

[tom s]

Ken,the bearing looks fine,did not take a close look at the F&R thrust side of it,will take a look next week.The only bearing that looked bad was the rear main.Tom

[tom s]

Thrust bearing

[MarkS57]

Just a thought, were the bearings supplied by Butler with the rotating assembly? If it is a journal radius issue wouldn't some culpability belong to Butler?

For the spark plugs, is it possible the center electrode broke inside the insulators and dropped down to close the gap? Crazier things have happened.

[wbnapier]

Originally Posted by MarkS57

Just a thought, were the bearings supplied by Butler with the rotating assembly? If it is a journal radius issue wouldn't some culpability belong to Butler?

For the spark plugs, is it possible the center electrode broke inside the insulators and dropped down to close the gap? Crazier things have happened.

Yes, the bearings were part of the kit I purchased from Butler. I will try to speak with them Monday, but I'm waiting on more info from the machinist. He's going to do some measurements with different bearings, stock crank, etc..

In my opinion, they should sell the kit with a narrow bearing or reduced radius (fillet). The customer should have no need to machine the crank for this. At the least, send a note with the kit that this needs to be checked.

Also, I wouldn't be surprised if this is either a manufacturing defect by Scat or Clevite. I doubt Butler would even check something like this on their own builds,

This cannot be a normal thing, otherwise garage hobbyists are doomed. If a hobbyist needs to go to this level of inspection detail on semi-finished parts, it becomes an unworkable project for most of us.

Moving forward, I would caution anyone against purchasing their own parts and doing this. Let your machinist prepping your block purchase the parts and have responsibility for them.

[Ben M.]

Originally Posted by wbnapier

Moving forward, I would caution anyone against purchasing their own parts and doing this. Let your machinist prepping your block purchase the parts and have responsibility for them.

This is the route I've taken on engines\transmissions lately. Most reputable shops have no problem warrantying their work if they supplied the parts, but once you introduce something of yours that they didn't supply, they get very skittish about it. I have had conversations with machinists at their shops on a friendly basis and they have given me the picture that if it's something they bought, they have recourse going after their supplier who they usually have a relationship with. If it's something some rando sold on craigslist or eBay and brought to the shop, they have next to no recourse other than pissing off the customer by telling them it isn't their fault or eating it.

I can't physically do the work on these big engines anymore so if I am doing something it needs to be done right the first time and if I'm pulling an engine, it better not be because I screwed up. Machining\manufacturing defects are not unheard of, even with quality vendors and suppliers. If we need a near clean-room environment to assemble an engine, that's going to put a hardship on a lot of people who don't have access to that kind of resource.

[johnta1]

None at all,the block was line honed after they and the ARP bolts were put in.Pretty sure its something to do with the radius on the aftermarket crank and the bearing.Tom

Check the main cap dimensions especially where that little 'sliver' of the cap is.
I had a block honed, looked great, fitted mains, dropped in crank.
Tightened each cap and checked the rotation torque. Excellent. Until I got to the last (rear) cap.
It would not budge!
I checked the clearances again, perfect. Except I never checked that little piece on back of the cap.


When honed, the operator did not run the hone all the way through the cap/block. Did the wide part, thought the bearing didn't go all the way to the end of the cap. (thought they were seal grooves?)

[ponjohn]

Originally Posted by Ben M.

This is the route I've taken on engines\transmissions lately. Most reputable shops have no problem warrantying their work if they supplied the parts, but once you introduce something of yours that they didn't supply, they get very skittish about it. I have had conversations with machinists at their shops on a friendly basis and they have given me the picture that if it's something they bought, they have recourse going after their supplier who they usually have a relationship with. If it's something some rando sold on craigslist or eBay and brought to the shop, they have next to no recourse other than pissing off the customer by telling them it isn't their fault or eating it.

I can't physically do the work on these big engines anymore so if I am doing something it needs to be done right the first time and if I'm pulling an engine, it better not be because I screwed up. Machining\manufacturing defects are not unheard of, even with quality vendors and suppliers. If we need a near clean-room environment to assemble an engine, that's going to put a hardship on a lot of people who don't have access to that kind of resource.

While I completely understand this message. I think most of us buy these parts as time and money permits because of the cost.



Is it better to to save the money, don't buy the parts and plop it down to a builder?

[pastry_chef]

Originally Posted by wbnapier

This cannot be a normal thing, otherwise garage hobbyists are doomed. If a hobbyist needs to go to this level of inspection detail on semi-finished parts, it becomes an unworkable project for most of us.

And most "engine builders" as well.
https://www.instagram.com/p/CEzMqmjnCEc/

[mchell]

Originally Posted by wbnapier

Yes, the bearings were part of the kit I purchased from Butler. I will try to speak with them Monday, but I'm waiting on more info from the machinist. He's going to do some measurements with different bearings, stock crank, etc..

In my opinion, they should sell the kit with a narrow bearing or reduced radius (fillet). The customer should have no need to machine the crank for this. At the least, send a note with the kit that this needs to be checked.

Also, I wouldn't be surprised if this is either a manufacturing defect by Scat or Clevite. I doubt Butler would even check something like this on their own builds,

This cannot be a normal thing, otherwise garage hobbyists are doomed. If a hobbyist needs to go to this level of inspection detail on semi-finished parts, it becomes an unworkable project for most of us.

Moving forward, I would caution anyone against purchasing their own parts and doing this. Let your machinist prepping your block purchase the parts and have responsibility for them.

Unfortunately, there are No guarantees no matter how you play it....

Just because a builder supplies the parts, builds it and you blow it up a day later later doesn’t guarantee squat. Too many variables.

I like to run em on the Dyno before install. Much easer to repair a problem found on the dyno. At least I have a chance at knowing it Might hold together AFTER I install it.

How long it will run after install is still a crap shoot on even a moderately built Pontiac. I drive em hard....

[STEELCITYFIREBIRD]

Originally Posted by wbnapier

Yes, the bearings were part of the kit I purchased from Butler. I will try to speak with them Monday, but I'm waiting on more info from the machinist. He's going to do some measurements with different bearings, stock crank, etc..

In my opinion, they should sell the kit with a narrow bearing or reduced radius (fillet). The customer should have no need to machine the crank for this. At the least, send a note with the kit that this needs to be checked.

Also, I wouldn't be surprised if this is either a manufacturing defect by Scat or Clevite. I doubt Butler would even check something like this on their own builds,

This cannot be a normal thing, otherwise garage hobbyists are doomed. If a hobbyist needs to go to this level of inspection detail on semi-finished parts, it becomes an unworkable project for most of us.

Moving forward, I would caution anyone against purchasing their own parts and doing this. Let your machinist prepping your block purchase the parts and have responsibility for them.

Excellent advice, I often told customers “Would you bring your own steaks to a restaurant then complain if they don’t taste good., make you sick or kill you”

IF we took the job , it was made clear, in writing...no warranty.
I would offer to match their “Summit Racing” pricing.

[mchell]

Those dowel pins have anything to do with the failure?

[tom s]

None at all,the block was line honed after they and the ARP bolts were put in.Pretty sure its something to do with the radius on the aftermarket crank and the bearing.Tom

[mchell]

Weird.... So you’re thinking it’s a manufacturing flaw? Those scat rotating assemblies are usually darn nice.

[Mike Davis]

What was the mfg of the bearings? I had a two sets of Clevite bearings here last year and one set was almost .018 wider than the other. I started checking all of them I install now and also radius the sides of all the bearings with a hand debur tool.

[wbnapier]

Originally Posted by Mike Davis

What was the mfg of the bearings? I had a two sets of Clevite bearings here last year and one set was almost .018 wider than the other. I started checking all of them I install now and also radius the sides of all the bearings with a hand debur tool.

Clevite also. You are more observant than me. Smart move.

[Formulas]

Was the rear seal already taken out before the pic?
Or a camera shadow thing?

The heat also seems to be quite a bit forward of the slinger radius enough to turn blue in the oil groove. Seems if it was as simple as bearing riding slinger radius it would clearance itself quickly on break in then cool and would also affect end play on assy

I once burned a rear main bearing I suspected it was from a -8 oil line ( to small ) to cooler / filter on a long high speed run went to -10
15 years before interweb

.