[Keith Vrabec]

Ok so we can get timing chains priced from $20 to $200, gear drives and belts.

Pontiacs wear them out badly of course, about 70k miles, so we replace them often.

So who knows anything about timing chains and which ones to get?

Specifically for street engines please, since this is the street forum.

Stock valvetrain and maybe roller lifter/rocker recommendations since thay are used on street engines.

Honestly I have been using the cheapies at NAPA or Autozone. My cars don't see a lot of miles. Usually run stock stuff. Then I go with Comp cams chain on more particular stuff like when I add bigger cams, higher rate springs and Rhoads lifters.

So please, If you know a bit about this and build a bunch of engines, tell us what you think.

After all what good is a great cam if paired with a lousy chain. And if you're doing just a stock rebuild is the $20 chain OK?

[mgarblik]

Timing sets have been discussed in many threads, so you may want to try a search. In my opinion based on over 40 years of building engines is there is one premium timing set brand, Cloyes Gear Company. They make 8 different sets for any budget and even their least expensive sets are better than any of the Chinese junk out there. I suggest going to their website: www.cloyes.com and spend some time in the high performance catalog. A very high quality set is the 9-3112. It is mid-cost but every set is hand matched and we have used this set at 1500 HP for an entire season and seen right at 1 degree of stretch on the degree wheel. They are an American company with excellent coverage for our old Indians.

[Ben M.]

I've used exclusively Cloyes for 14 years. I don't go nuts for the double roller or fancy chains, just the Cloyes true roller series you get at NAPA for $45 or whatever it costs. My engines are stock-ish and see a good deal of miles, never had any real issues with them so no reason to change.

[ponyakr]

I built several slow bracket engines. We made thousands of passes with 'em and never broke a chain or gear. Bought one double roller set, thinking the chain would stretch less. It stretched just as quick as the cheapie. So after that, I used nothing but TRW cheap sets. I kept several extra chains in stock, and used a new one every time I had the cover off. Since the chains always stretched almost instantly, I always used a 4 degree advance key to make up some of the difference. Again, as I said, these were slow bracket cars--mid 12's--455's--5500 rpm max.

So, I'd recommend the cheapest Cloyes set. They sell for just over $20 on Ebay. The entire set costs very little more than just the chain. So, you can stock a spare set, for a possible future cam change or ?

Now if you insist on super fine cam degreeing, Summit has some cheap house brand roller sets with 9 keyways. With one of these and maybe both 2 & 4 degree advance keys, I reckin you can get it pretty close to where you want it. Never used a 9-groove, so I don't know anything about 'em.

[72LuxuryLeMansLa.]

I'm going with one of these: http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...74316#poststop
I am building a street engine with a Roller Cam and I am killing friction anyplace I can. It may be overkill but I like overkill!

[Cliff R]

I went "full-circle" with this deal, and use the stock replacement timing chains for my own engines.

Most of the double roller stuff is crap, and they will stretch out quickly and once in a while we see one break.

The stock link-belt type are tougher than nails, and last WAY longer than any one reading this is going to need them to. They only got a bad rap from the factory using the nylon coated top sprockets to quiet things down some. The nylon type are actually better for spark control than anything else out there. I knew a drag racer several decades ago that held a couple of records with his Camaro in Stock Eliminator, and he only used the Speed Pro wide link-belt set with a nylon top sprocket in his BBC builds. He even swapped the same set from engine to engine when he built them! Back then he claimed it was faster than any other time of timing set, and "absorbed harmonics" and reduced "spark scatter", etc.

The only down side to the stock type is a more difficult to degree the cam, requiring offset crank and cam keys.

I only ran the stock type sets from the early 80's until I built my first 455. WAY back in the 1970's when I first entered this hobby, I fell into the same pit as EVERYONE else. Ditched the factory carb/intake, install a "3/4" or Fireball cam, dual point distributor, high volume oil piump, and double roller timing set.

ALL of those options are WORSE than the stock parts, especially the double roller timing set part of it. None of them are really an upgrade from the stock 3/4" wide link belt set. There are also advantages of that type of timing set over the rollers beyond strength. I see LESS movement of the timing mark when I follow them on the dyno. The roller chains produce some sort of harmonics that allow the timing to bounce around some. Some types produce this problem a LOT worse than others, but I can still see it with my timing light. My link belt set doesn't do this, timing is ROCK STEADY when I follow the mark and watch it with the timing light.

Unless you upgrade to the really expensive true roller chains and billet sprockets, you will see a LOT of chain stretch with roller sets, and quickly. Not too many folks go back in and look at that deal, but we have, and those chains stretch a LOT more than I'm comfortable with, and way too early in the engines life.

I even had issues with my Rollmaster chain in my first 455. It was fine for a few years, and I checked it many times, moving the cam around and swapping cams, etc. Then all at once, and for no reason the car starting slowing WAY down at the track. I just figured the engine was getting a little tired, so ended up pulling it out for freshening up. The only thing wrong with it was the Rollmaster chain, it had about 3" of slop in it! Good thing I pulled it down, it was just about ready to walk off the gear or eat a hole in the cover.

A couple of weeks ago I pulled the timing cover from my current 455 for the 3rd time due to a water leak in the upper left corner. My cover must either be porous (new aftermarket), or incorrectly machined, because it keeps blowing out the gasket. My Melling stock replacement timing set is finally starting to show a little play in it, but well within limits and gears are in mint condition. For $20 I could have changed it, but wanted to leave it in service and keep running it just to prove to myself that they are fine for high performance work.

This is one of those topics that can get beat to death and go all over the map. For the limited miles these engines see in almost all cases, I doubt if anyone is going to have troubles with timing sets, even the cheap crap that aren't even true roller and have imported cheap chains and iron sprockets, etc.

If you are building an engine and are looking double roller, go with the very best, true roller set with billet sprockets and 9 keyways to adjust cam timing. In the same breath, nothing at all wrong with a stock set from NAPA for $20 if you don't mind buying a couple of offset keys to move the cam to the correct ICL. You will NEVER have to look at the stock timing set again, unless you get out past 100,000 miles or so.....IMHO.....Cliff

[Singleton]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

nothing at all wrong with a stock set from NAPA for $20 if you don't mind buying a couple of offset keys to move the cam to the correct ICL.

Where would someone buy these offset cam and/or crank offset keys?

[grivera]

Originally Posted by Singleton

Where would someone buy these offset cam and/or crank offset keys?

I'm not sure who else makes a set, but a search may help. These are the ones I used on my last build- perhaps someone has old stock available:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...5FKbX9xeeEO-_Q

Yes- they fit Pontiac...

[Chris-Austria]

What do you think about the Rollmaster timing set with the IWIS chain?
That's what I bought, the Comps set stretched after just 2 years.

[Cliff R]

It doesn't matter what type of chain that you buy, ALL of them are going to stretch out some with use.

With this in mind, buy the better sets when you go to the roller variety, to ward off excessive chain stretch as long as possible.

For the stock sets that I use, it's service life is going to be 100,000 miles or so, slightly less if you have super strong springs and high pressure pump, and longer if you are using a roller cam set-up and standard pressure pump.

I suppose oil viscosity plays a small part here as well. The more "drag" on the timing set, the more the chain is going to stretch out and the gears wear in long term service.

For the way most of us use/drive these vehicles these days, it's almost a mute point to worry much about timing sets, even the "low" end stuff is going to provide a pretty good service life. I've seen few sets give troubles under 30,000 miles or so. For my car and the way I drive it these days, that's a LOT of short trips to the track and 1/8th or 1/4 mile blasts!.......FWIW.....Cliff

[tom s]

Im told the original pontiac factory 4 cyc chains were the best.Not sure how hard they are to find now.Tom

[gtofreek]

Originally Posted by Chris-Austria

What do you think about the Rollmaster timing set with the IWIS chain?
That's what I bought, the Comps set stretched after just 2 years.

Very good set, and IWIS chains are the best.

[mgarblik]

Agree with most of Cliff's comments and I will add a few additional. I agree that a cheap, especially Chinese roller set is junk, period. Most are not true rollers, anyway, meaning the pins do not have actual rollers on them. Cheap roller chains = stretch and possible breakage. IWIS and RENOLD are the 2 premium roller chains in the automotive world. Cloyes uses both brands. Rollmaster also uses IWIS chains. But just like most large companies, they make different quality lines of chains at both RENOLD and IWIS. The Cloyes Z series chain is the best roller chain money can buy. But it's expensive and not appropriate for this street thread. Rollmaster uses a mid-grade IWIS chain, similar to the less expensive Cloyes true roller sets. Not in the same league with the Race Cloyes sets. My recommendations, street build on a tight budget, flat link chain set from a reputable seller like NAPA. Cheap roller set, do not buy or use, period. Serious street performance, Cloyes race sets, from basic 9-3112 up to the ultimate billet set with Z chain, good to 3000+ HP. Offset cam/crank keys are available from Summit, Jegs and others. Mr. Gasket markets them and other brands. They are 3/16" woodruff keys. Mercedes Benz dealers may also stock these keys. They used offset keys of the same size in some of their weird engines.

[Grand73Am]

I've been wondering about timing chains and sets lately, so appreciate this discussion. I got an Edelbrock performer cam a while back, and in the installation instructions, they say that OEM or non-Edelbrock timing sets are not recommended for their cams. They say that the later model OEM timing sets, like late 70's, are designed in a retarded position. Wondering if that's true or not? Or just a way to sell more Edelbrock parts? I put the suggested Edelbrock timing set on and could not get the cam to degree to their cam card specs, no matter how I positioned it. I put a Cloyes set straight up on it, and the cam degrees to spec the first time. I have an original replacement set too, but didn't consider using it due to what the Edelbrock instructions said.

[Chris-Austria]

I guess it's also important to lubricate the chain for the first startup.. maybe even a good chain could stretch in the first seconds if it's completely dry?!
I put mine into 20w50 oil over night before installing.

[Singleton]

Originally Posted by grivera

I'm not sure who else makes a set, but a search may help. These are the ones I used on my last build- perhaps someone has old stock available:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...5FKbX9xeeEO-_Q

Yes- they fit Pontiac...

Yes, that's the old Mopar offset keys that used to be available, wish they would bring them back.
The only thing that summit has is the Mr Gasket 987G 2 degree cam key, which would be 4 degrees at the crank. So if you needed to advance or retard 1 or 2 degrees, it would be useless

[mgarblik]

Related story about chains. I have a Jeep Grand Cherokee 4X4. Transfer case uses a chain like a giant flat link timing chain, about 1" wide and 3-3 1/2 feet long. It was stretched out and slapping the case and jumping teeth under load. Bought a total rebuild kit on the internet, all Chinese components. Stuff looked good when it came, chain teeth smooth and nicely finished. Rebuilt the unit put it in and 6000 miles later, the same symptoms began happening again. Took it back apart and the chain was more stretched out than the original Morse Link Belt chain that had nearly 200,000 miles on it! YES, THE CHAIN MATTERS!. Don't cheap out and use Chinese junk. Internet Kit, $169.00. Quality Kit, $249.00. Worth every penny. It's been 80,000 miles now, quiet as a mouse.

[unclescratch]

x2 on that one ! I believe Nunzi gets the credit for the first mention of this important concept in my notes.

[ANDYA]

Originally Posted by unclescratch

x2 on that one ! I believe Nunzi gets the credit for the first mention of this important concept in my notes.

Yep, Nunzi told me that along time ago. The longer you soak it the better. The last engine I put together I put the timing chain in a small bucket of 15w-40 Rotella for over a week. Each day I grabbed it with a pair of pliers and swished it around.

[72LuxuryLeMansLa.]

Originally Posted by ANDYA

Yep, Nunzi told me that along time ago. The longer you soak it the better. The last engine I put together I put the timing chain in a small bucket of 15w-40 Rotella for over a week. Each day I grabbed it with a pair of pliers and swished it around.

Well now that's were you are screwing the pooch! You should have sloshed it around, swishing can cause problems!