[ripper1991]

The infamous long story short

I was around other car enthusiasts basically bench racing at a garage near you.the conversation went to camaros and firebirds both first and second generation.i made comments on how similar the 1st gen camaro and firebird are due to Pontiac having to make due in what they were given to work with ,as opposed to the 2nd gen cars.

Everything from that point on turned into an arguement by the other party.

From what stories i remember Pontiac had to refine a pony car that chevrolet pretty much ran the ball with from the beginning and designed most of the car .pontiac only had a fraction of input for the F body,and the camaro was released to the public earlier than the firebird to add insult to injury.

I would lump them in two groups 67-68 Fbodys and 69 on its own.meaning if you had a 67-68 camaro or firebird the front fenders,doors,roof,quarter panels and trunk lid would work on either vehicle.i realize the fenders are not just " bolt on " brackets have to be moved and bumper notched however i thought i remember guys doing this years ago before repops were even available.

Feel free to correct me on what i have wrong . thank you brian

[thews]

http://www.transamworld.com/fbird-history-php.php

The Pontiac Firebird was released five months after the Chevrolet Camaro, and offered buyers choices of six and eight cylinder engines. Pontiac was able to use that additional time to create a unique identity for the Firebird, despite having to use the Camaro chassis and some body panels. Despite using the same front fenders, doors, and rear fenders as the Camaro, the Firebird's styled split front grille, beaked hood, and GTO-slitted taillights gave it a distinctly Pontiac apperance. But the key differentiator was under the hood, where the Firebird offered a range of Pontiac engines. Initially, five different Firebirds were available, named after their respective engine choices. At the bottom was the lowly 230 cubic inch OHC six cylinder engine with a single 1bbl carb, rated at a measily 165 bhp. Stepping up to the "Sprint" version got the buyer a 230 I6 with a 4bbl carb rated at 215bhp. Either six cylinder was linked to either a three or four speed manual or two-speed automatic transmission. Although the six cylinder engines were more powerful than Chevy's offerings, most buyers wisely opted for one of the available V8 engines. At the bottom was Pontiac's 326 V8 with a two barrel carb that was rated at 250 bhp. A special "H.O." (High Output) version of the 326 V8 fitted with a four barrel carb was rated at 285bhp. At the top was the 400 V8 borrowed from the GTO. This engine was rated at 325 bhp, and was available with or without Ram Air (which suspiciously didn't affect the engine rating, hmm.) The Ram Air engine included a hotter cam, stronger valve springs, and made use of the otherwise decrorative hood scoops. With no publicized power increase and a hefty $600 price tag, the Ram Air option was rarely ordered. All V8s came with a standard heavy-duty three speed manual transmission; a four speed manual and three speed automatic were optional. Performance axle ratios up to 4.33:1 were available as well as front disk brakes. Firebird prices were roughly $200 more than comparable Camaros and the Camaro outsold it two to one. But Pontiac's pony car had arrived.

[Murf]

I’m no expert but I don’t think the rear quarters are the same. Years ago I bought a 68 and was prepping for paint.
I found it had what I assume was a Camaro quarter on one side. This was in the early 90’s and it was old work then. It had been braised on and the gills had be cut out of the old quarter and also braised into the quarter. It was a nice job and I never noticed it until I got to working on it.
The odd thing about was the detail around the wheel opening was different from side to side. The side with the original quarter had an extra detail to the cove around the opening. It’s hard to explain and I never thought of taking a pic of it at the time.

Believe it or don’t.
Murf


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Murf]

After posting, I got to thinking about it. Of course they were different. Gills & marker lights obviously but I was surprised that something as basic as the wheel openings were different. It is a classy extra detail from Pontiac, as usual.

Murg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by Murf

After posting, I got to thinking about it. Of course they were different. Gills & marker lights obviously but I was surprised that something as basic as the wheel openings were different. It is a classy extra detail from Pontiac, as usual.

Murg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

I wrecked my 67 Firebird in 1969, and I know for a fact they take different quarters, as you said by the gills/vents. When I had a friend of mine write the estimate we priced both Camaro and Firebird quarters and at the time the Camaro quarters were about $25 cheaper than Firebird ones.

I've also seen a Camaro front clip on Firebird to repair crash damage back in the 70s, the body crease in the middle of the panels is at a different height if I recall correctly, the door crease didn't match the fender.

[JimFB400HO]

In 1968-69, when I was considering what I wanted for my first car. I had narrowed down my choices to Camaros and Firebirds and thought they were basically the same.

As fate has it, I ended up with the '68 Firebird I still have after 52 year. Over the years I realize that the '67-68 Camaros and Firebirds may share the F-body, some sheet metal, convert frames, and other common GM parts I believe they are quite different.

Although the Pontiac designers were directed to use the Camaro as a basis for the Firebird creation, it is amazing how unique the Birds are; different engines, different axles, different length, different rear wheelbase, different noses, different interiors, different exterior lights, etc.

That said, I still very much like both cars but glad I have the Bird.

[einstein]

Originally Posted by Murf

I’m no expert but I don’t think the rear quarters are the same. Years ago I bought a 68 and was prepping for paint.
I found it had what I assume was a Camaro quarter on one side. This was in the early 90’s and it was old work then. It had been braised on and the gills had be cut out of the old quarter and also braised into the quarter. It was a nice job and I never noticed it until I got to working on it.
The odd thing about was the detail around the wheel opening was different from side to side. The side with the original quarter had an extra detail to the cove around the opening. It’s hard to explain and I never thought of taking a pic of it at the time.

Believe it or don’t.
Murf


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Your "extra detail" was the sculpted groove common to both Camaro and Firebird. It was missing from your replacement panel because the manufacturer didn't care to get it right. If your car had wheel lip moldings, it needed that groove to sit properly on the lip. Been thru that back in the early 80s on a couple of 68 400s I restored. The quarter patch skins I bought were missing the concave detail and I had to leave off the wheel lip moldings.

Camaro and Firebird front fenders were the same with minor differences for where the bumper fillers went of Firebird, plus 68 Camaro got a punch for side marker.

The quarters for 67 and 68 were identical with the stamped gills added for Firebird, and the obviously different punchouts for 68 side marker lamps. Same for 69, Camaro got the simulated louvers. Doors were identical year by year.

The different position creaseline did not happen until the 70-81 models.

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by einstein

Your "extra detail" was the sculpted groove common to both Camaro and Firebird. It was missing from your replacement panel because the manufacturer didn't care to get it right. If your car had wheel lip moldings, it needed that groove to sit properly on the lip. Been thru that back in the early 80s on a couple of 68 400s I restored. The quarter patch skins I bought were missing the concave detail and I had to leave off the wheel lip moldings.

Camaro and Firebird front fenders were the same with minor differences for where the bumper fillers went of Firebird, plus 68 Camaro got a punch for side marker.

The quarters for 67 and 68 were identical with the stamped gills added for Firebird, and the obviously different punchouts for 68 side marker lamps. Same for 69, Camaro got the simulated louvers. Doors were identical year by year.

The different position creaseline did not happen until the 70-81 models

Now that I think back, it was an early 70s Firebird with a Camaro clip that I saw. Bad enough it was a red front end with a blue car, then the lines didn't match up too.

[north]

As the owner of three First gen Firebirds (69’s) I’ll carefully weigh in on this with my honest 2 cents. Growing up a GTO guy I never had much interest in first gen Firebirds. To me they were just a Camaro with a different nose and a Pontiac engine. Besides the 70+ Firebirds were all round better cars in terms of looks, handling and more distinct identity relative to the same year Camaro.

40 years later I’ve softened my opinion somewhat (enough to have them in my garage anyhow!). The style has grown on me over the years (I prefer the 69 over the 67-8, mostly because it looks more distinct from the Camaro) but they honestly don’t compare to the beautiful 70.5 car that replaced it (even though I don’t own a 2nd generation car).

One important improvement in 69 was the new dashboard that at least wasn’t a clone of the Camaro dash. It wasn’t necessarily better looking than the Camaro dash but it wasn’t the same.

One thing that impressed me more over the years is how these cars drive. Assuming it isn’t a rust compromised car they are surprisingly tight cars (even the ragtops) that are much more buttoned together feeling compared to say a GTO etc.

While I’m not a huge fan of the styling details of the 67-69 birds they do have excellent proportions and stock stance that make them very attractive cars regardless.

So in conclusion I’m not a huge fan or foe, they did unfortunately advance us down the road towards the dreaded 70-80’s GM clone cars by sharing too much sheet metal and interiors but despite that they are still good looking cars and the use of Pontiac engines helped offset the excess body and trim sharing with the hugger.

[JLMounce]

From rebuilding my 69, there are also steering system differences, specific to that car both from the 67-68 birds and the camaro as well.

I believe I have read that Firebird also received higher durometer bushings in the upper and lower control arms, adding a slight amount of wheel rate over the camar.

[north]

Another difference Pontiac did on the first gen (until mid 69 anyway) was use low profile tires (E or F70) versus the standard Camaro tires as small as 7.35 that were much narrower and taller. This made the Firebird sit lower and look more sporting with filled out wheelwells.

In 69 they Pontiac even further, they crushed the rear axle tubes so they could lower the back end even more.

If you look at period photos online or watch old 1969-70 era tv shows the ride height difference between 1st gen Camaro and Firebird was striking.

[ripper1991]

thank you to those who responded