#21  
Old 05-16-2021, 11:16 PM
Vengeance Race Engines's Avatar
Vengeance Race Engines Vengeance Race Engines is offline
Senior Chief
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: N.Y.
Posts: 386
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by slowbird View Post
I might be wrong, but imo to some extent the price of the parts determines how long it last not how much it'll make.
The block? Just curious, but what does the price of parts have to do with the block living or breaking? Or did the arguement change and i missed it?

The Following User Says Thank You to Vengeance Race Engines For This Useful Post:
  #22  
Old 05-16-2021, 11:49 PM
slowbird's Avatar
slowbird slowbird is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Montgomery, IL
Posts: 10,638
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vengeance Race Engines View Post
The block? Just curious, but what does the price of parts have to do with the block living or breaking? Or did the arguement change and i missed it?
Again just my opinion but 2 bolt caps vs billet caps or lifter brace vs no brace (there are other things imo also). You can get by without them but for how long (admittedly the brace really depends how aggressive you get with cam)? Spend some money and build it smart it might live awhile.

  #23  
Old 05-17-2021, 07:47 AM
PAUL K's Avatar
PAUL K PAUL K is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Sugar Grove IL USA
Posts: 6,282
Default

I built a 785hp race gas factory block engine a few years ago to test an intake manifold. It's had no reliability issues sitting in the "parts for sale" section.

__________________
Go fast, see Elvis!
www.facebook.com/PaulKnippensMuscleMotors
  #24  
Old 05-17-2021, 09:20 AM
Mike S's Avatar
Mike S Mike S is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Vineland,N.J.
Posts: 1,513
Default

Sorry didn't see the question, I have no E85 available near me. So thats out of the question.
I have been making close to 700hp on race gas for years. Freshen up every 3 to 4 years. Engine has been very reliable (knock on wood) at 12-1 and a soft ramp roller cam. I don't understand what pump gas does as far as reliability Let me know if I am missing something.
Like I said main reason is to take it to local cruises and car shows with out worrying about how much race gas I have in the tank. My home track will more than likely be closing next year (Atco in NJ) and still want to enjoy the car.

  #25  
Old 05-17-2021, 11:19 AM
Stan Weiss's Avatar
Stan Weiss Stan Weiss is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 5,000
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike S View Post
Sorry didn't see the question, I have no E85 available near me. So thats out of the question.
I have been making close to 700hp on race gas for years. Freshen up every 3 to 4 years. Engine has been very reliable (knock on wood) at 12-1 and a soft ramp roller cam. I don't understand what pump gas does as far as reliability Let me know if I am missing something.
Like I said main reason is to take it to local cruises and car shows with out worrying about how much race gas I have in the tank. My home track will more than likely be closing next year (Atco in NJ) and still want to enjoy the car.
What is your cranking compression with that setup?

Stan

__________________
Stan Weiss/World Wide Enterprises
Offering Performance Software Since 1987
http://www.magneticlynx.com/carfor/carfor.htm
David Vizard & Stan Weiss' IOP / Flow / Induction Optimization - Cam Selection Software
http://www.magneticlynx.com/DV
Download FREE 14 Trial IOP / Flow Software
http://www.magneticlynx.com/DV/Flow_..._Day_Trial.php
Pontiac Pump Gas List
http://www.magneticlynx.com/carfor/pont_gas.htm
Using PMD Block and Heads List
http://www.magneticlynx.com/carfor/pont_pmd.htm
  #26  
Old 05-17-2021, 03:05 PM
Mike S's Avatar
Mike S Mike S is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Vineland,N.J.
Posts: 1,513
Default

Cranking compression fully warm and carb wide open is 180psi. Dynamic compression with the Wallace calculator is 9.4.
I have the older 72cc E-heads. Locked timing at 36. Car runs best on C12 and likes AFR at 13.2. Slows if I go richer. It runs faster at 38 degree timing but after looking at the ground strap on the plugs, it shows a hair to much timing so cut it back this year.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	plug.jpg
Views:	252
Size:	29.0 KB
ID:	566778  

  #27  
Old 05-18-2021, 02:47 PM
Wareagle's Avatar
Wareagle Wareagle is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Canada
Posts: 2,631
Cool

How about this one - A Pontiac V8 Won The Engine Masters Challenge in 2015 400 Block ( 465 ci. ) 3 Dyno pulls of 720 hp nothing to Exotic - Kauffman High Ports etc.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	1pengine-masters-challenge-big-block-01.jpg
Views:	250
Size:	71.7 KB
ID:	566816  

__________________
The Bandit Rules - Make mine with a SD-455 Engine .
  #28  
Old 05-20-2021, 02:56 AM
blueghoast's Avatar
blueghoast blueghoast is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 2,396
Default

Cranking comp. under 200 psi. And your good for pump gas.
If you want to hammer on it at the track and feel better with
race gas then run some race gas.
My motor is 11:98:1 comp 120 cranking comp and it runs fine on pump gas.
Still need to get it to the track and see how the 3.42 gear and 5300 stall
converter works. It's great on the street.

GT

  #29  
Old 05-20-2021, 07:20 AM
Dragncar Dragncar is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Humbolt County California
Posts: 8,283
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wareagle View Post
How about this one - A Pontiac V8 Won The Engine Masters Challenge in 2015 400 Block ( 465 ci. ) 3 Dyno pulls of 720 hp nothing to Exotic - Kauffman High Ports etc.
This engine is very close to the one I am doing. I would take 720.

The Following User Says Thank You to Dragncar For This Useful Post:
  #30  
Old 05-20-2021, 07:31 AM
GTOLou GTOLou is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Anderson, SC
Posts: 2,111
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RAIV-Z View Post
Yes, 4.35 Stroke, 4.150 bore, 470.72CID.
E-Heads by Jim Robertson.
10.5 to 1 Compression
Street Driven, pump gas.

Best so far, 10.409@128.68mph
Bucket list there - to try a motor w/ 4.35/4.375 crank/stroke.

  #31  
Old 05-20-2021, 09:11 AM
Cliff R's Avatar
Cliff R Cliff R is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Mount Vernon, Ohio 43050
Posts: 17,972
Default

The two weak points we found when doing exactly what you are looking at were the main caps and the lifter bores.

I actually found two dowel pins in the oil pan after about 10 years of racing it when it was removed to "freshen" things up. The bearings were OK but not far from giving troubles.

We screwed up and went to a solid roller cam that was just too aggressive and knocked the lifter bores out of it even with a brace installed. So stay somewhat "conservative" with the lobe profiles and for sure outfit the block with a good aftermarket set of main caps/fasteners.......

__________________
If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you can read this in English, thank a Veteran!
https://cliffshighperformance.com/
73 Ventura, SOLD 455, 3740lbs, 11.30's at 120mph, 1977 Pontiac Q-jet, HO intake, HEI, 10" converter, 3.42 gears, DOT's, 7.20's at 96mph and still WAY under the roll bar rule. Best ET to date 7.18 at 97MPH (1/8th mile),
  #32  
Old 05-20-2021, 09:20 AM
chiefbigb chiefbigb is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: richmond va usa
Posts: 1,479
Default

Unless you went aluminum your adding allot of steer axle weight to the car with a aftermarket block. At 700 hp a prepped factory block will live a long life. I would do a short fill on it and use billet caps.

__________________
Be carefull of the feet you step on today.They may be attached to the a$$ you kiss tomorrow.
  #33  
Old 05-20-2021, 09:54 AM
Stan Weiss's Avatar
Stan Weiss Stan Weiss is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 5,000
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by blueghoast View Post
Cranking comp. under 200 psi. And your good for pump gas.
If you want to hammer on it at the track and feel better with
race gas then run some race gas.
My motor is 11:98:1 comp 120 cranking comp and it runs fine on pump gas.
Still need to get it to the track and see how the 3.42 gear and 5300 stall
converter works. It's great on the street.

GT
Did you mean to type 210 psi? If not I would be interest in what cam intake lobe you are running to only have 120 psi.

Stan

__________________
Stan Weiss/World Wide Enterprises
Offering Performance Software Since 1987
http://www.magneticlynx.com/carfor/carfor.htm
David Vizard & Stan Weiss' IOP / Flow / Induction Optimization - Cam Selection Software
http://www.magneticlynx.com/DV
Download FREE 14 Trial IOP / Flow Software
http://www.magneticlynx.com/DV/Flow_..._Day_Trial.php
Pontiac Pump Gas List
http://www.magneticlynx.com/carfor/pont_gas.htm
Using PMD Block and Heads List
http://www.magneticlynx.com/carfor/pont_pmd.htm
  #34  
Old 05-20-2021, 01:28 PM
napster's Avatar
napster napster is offline
Chief Ponti-yacker
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 719
Default

If I was going that route, forget the factory block and go with the IAII block. I'm considering a new engine with the IAII block.

  #35  
Old 05-20-2021, 01:38 PM
Tom Vaught's Avatar
Tom Vaught Tom Vaught is offline
Boost Engineer
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: The United States of America
Posts: 31,294
Default

I spoke with Marty Palbykin a few weeks ago, and he said that posts by an individual that said he had several cast iron blocks in his Twin Turbo Pontiac 1970 GTO were totally false.

The 1967 2 bolt main block he ran, (not drilled for 4 bolt mains, he added Program splayed steel caps to the block lasted for 3 years before he switched it out for a different engine.
It had NOT failed but was abused. So the stories are all BS.

His comment was it depends on the other things you have done to the block: Chryogenic treatment, Excellent machining, solid EFI calibrations, dyno testing, and small steps (changes) at the track.

So if you do a lot of things right you might get 3 years out of a factory block with modifications IF YOU DO NOT MAKE A MISTAKE AT 1600 HP POWER LEVELS (6.96 et IN THE QUARTER MILE).

I would go by that experience vs normal BS from some websites.

Personally I think Marty had at least the same money in his block as a current model IA-2 Cast Iron block and it obviously was not as strong as the IA-2 block. No question in my mind to use the aftermarket block vs the $$$$ spent to upgrade a factory block.

Tom V.

__________________
"Engineers do stuff for reasons" Tom Vaught

Despite small distractions, there are those who will go Forward, Learning, Sharing Knowledge, Doing what they can to help others move forward.
  #36  
Old 05-20-2021, 02:19 PM
Steve C. Steve C. is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Liberty Hill, Tx. (Austin)
Posts: 10,385
Default

1970 400 block.
Filled to freeze plugs with Race Engineering "Block Rock" material.
Five Pro-Gram Engineering main caps installed.
ARP stud kit used and block align honed.
Bored and honed with a torque plate / 4.165 bore
Block was properly squared up relative to the corrected centerline of the crankshaft. Crower billet 4.125" stroke crank used.
Gasket surface finish used for a Cometic MLS head gasket.
Mega Brace lifter bore bracing installed.

This block was used in conjunction with 700 HP at 6900/ 7000 rpm for quite some time. No issues. Engine was pulled for a street build. I later sold the block.


.

__________________
'70 TA / 505 cid / same engine but revised ( previous best 10.63 at 127.05 )
Old information here:
http://www.hotrod.com/articles/0712p...tiac-trans-am/

Sponsor of the world's fastest Pontiac powered Ford Fairmont (engine)
5.14 at 140 mph (1/8 mile) , true 10.5 tire, stock type suspension
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDoJnIP3HgE
  #37  
Old 05-20-2021, 02:24 PM
GTOGEORGE's Avatar
GTOGEORGE GTOGEORGE is offline
Suspended
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: South Rockwood, MICHIGAN
Posts: 8,884
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vaught View Post
I spoke with Marty Palbykin a few weeks ago, and he said that posts by an individual that said he had several cast iron blocks in his Twin Turbo Pontiac 1970 GTO were totally false.

The 1967 2 bolt main block he ran, (not drilled for 4 bolt mains, he added Program splayed steel caps to the block lasted for 3 years before he switched it out for a different engine.
It had NOT failed but was abused. So the stories are all BS.

His comment was it depends on the other things you have done to the block: Chryogenic treatment, Excellent machining, solid EFI calibrations, dyno testing, and small steps (changes) at the track.

So if you do a lot of things right you might get 3 years out of a factory block with modifications IF YOU DO NOT MAKE A MISTAKE AT 1600 HP POWER LEVELS (6.96 et IN THE QUARTER MILE).

I would go by that experience vs normal BS from some websites.

Personally I think Marty had at least the same money in his block as a current model IA-2 Cast Iron block and it obviously was not as strong as the IA-2 block. No question in my mind to use the aftermarket block vs the $$$$ spent to upgrade a factory block.

Tom V.
Never heard of any bad stories about the blocks Marty ran....anywhere. How many passes did he make in those 3 years..........hundreds......a dozen......it makes a difference.



GTO George

  #38  
Old 05-20-2021, 04:05 PM
Tom Vaught's Avatar
Tom Vaught Tom Vaught is offline
Boost Engineer
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: The United States of America
Posts: 31,294
Default

He made a lot of runs at Stanton Michigan, probably 100 over the 3 years at Stanton.
He made another 50 runs at US-131 Dragway at Martin Michigan.
He made runs at Texas one year where he ran 7 tenths faster than your best time ever with one hole leaking cylinder pressure. A gas ring failed before the Earhart/ Palbykin rings were used. He made runs at Norwalk one year, but I would say the majority of the runs over the years were at Stanton Michigan where people could not see the passes and the times run. TUNING RUNS and SUSPENSION TUNING Same deal happened with Stan's 1961 Twin Turbo Catalina when he was learning to drive a high HP full size car.

Maybe 300 passes over the 3 years total. Obviously not the number you have run over the years when you were keeping the boost down.

Except for the bad gas ring, (I got them for him from a Bonneville Salt Flats Racer) He
had a pretty durable engine over those 3 years.

Tom V.

__________________
"Engineers do stuff for reasons" Tom Vaught

Despite small distractions, there are those who will go Forward, Learning, Sharing Knowledge, Doing what they can to help others move forward.
  #39  
Old 05-20-2021, 04:12 PM
GTOGEORGE's Avatar
GTOGEORGE GTOGEORGE is offline
Suspended
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: South Rockwood, MICHIGAN
Posts: 8,884
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vaught View Post
He made a lot of runs at Stanton Michigan, probably 100 over the 3 years at Stanton.
He made another 50 runs at US-131 Dragway at Martin Michigan.
He made runs at Texas one year where he ran 7 tenths faster than your best time ever with one hole leaking cylinder pressure. A gas ring failed before the Earhart/ Palbykin rings were used. He made runs at Norwalk one year, but I would say the majority of the runs over the years were at Stanton Michigan where people could not see the passes and the times run. TUNING RUNS and SUSPENSION TUNING Same deal happened with Stan's 1961 Twin Turbo Catalina when he was learning to drive a high HP full size car.

Maybe 300 passes over the 3 years total. Obviously not the number you have run over the years when you were keeping the boost down.

Except for the bad gas ring, (I got them for him from a Bonneville Salt Flats Racer) He
had a pretty durable engine over those 3 years.

Tom V.
"He probably".............Ok , Got it!
I ran Stanton a lot.......hummmm!


GTO George

  #40  
Old 05-20-2021, 07:23 PM
Tom Vaught's Avatar
Tom Vaught Tom Vaught is offline
Boost Engineer
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: The United States of America
Posts: 31,294
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTOGEORGE View Post
"He probably".............Ok , Got it!
I ran Stanton a lot.......hummmm!

GTO George
How often did you actually RENT THE TRACK vs just race there?
Marty was being secretive about his deal with the Pontiac World until he ran at that event at Norwalk
The fact that you ran on the weekends did not say much, George. Still trying to discredit Martys Program.
We are talking Jet Pilot Money vs you showing up at the track on a week-end. You are a funny guy.
Same deal with the Keens renting Bradenton's Track in Florida. You still are a long ways from being in Marty's
5 second club. Or having a car like Palbykin's or Chief's GTO

Tom V.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Marty Palbykin Blown PRO MOD.jpg
Views:	174
Size:	39.2 KB
ID:	566965  

__________________
"Engineers do stuff for reasons" Tom Vaught

Despite small distractions, there are those who will go Forward, Learning, Sharing Knowledge, Doing what they can to help others move forward.

Last edited by Tom Vaught; 05-20-2021 at 07:29 PM.
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:04 PM.

 

About Us

The PY Online Forums is the largest online gathering of Pontiac enthusiasts anywhere in the world. Founded in 1991, it was also the first online forum for people to gather and talk about their Pontiacs. Since then, it has become the mecca of Pontiac technical data and knowledge that no other place can surpass.

 




Copyright © 2017