[68ragtop]

Originally Posted by 68bird400HO

I am in the Madison area. If you are ever down this way feel free to PM me.

I usually make it to Jefferson, but not this past fall. Too much going on lately..

How comes you have long gears.......... Home come...... classic

[694.1]

68bird, I bet that's Pat?
How about a "bluing" that I have seen on bolts. There are crank dampener bolts that almost look like gun bluing, was that common in the early 60's?

[68ragtop]

Originally Posted by 694.1

68bird, I bet that's Pat?
How about a "bluing" that I have seen on bolts. There are crank dampener bolts that almost look like gun bluing, was that common in the early 60's?

Ohhh, now your really going to get me confused.... haha

[68bird400HO]

Originally Posted by 694.1

68bird, I bet that's Pat?
How about a "bluing" that I have seen on bolts. There are crank dampener bolts that almost look like gun bluing, was that common in the early 60's?

Yup, its Pat.

[68bird400HO]

Originally Posted by 68ragtop

I usually make it to Jefferson, but not this past fall. Too much going on lately..

How comes you have long gears.......... Home come...... classic

Yeah, loved the '70s Saturday morning cartoon lineup. Don't know what happened to that.

[68bird400HO]

Originally Posted by 68ragtop

So I am starting to get myself a little confused....

So Parkerizing is the same as black oxide for a black finish.

Is phosphate magnesium also the same? The images I saw in the video above do not look like black oxide to me. more of a gray slate color?
they look close to the correct color for our hood hinges & maybe they are?

Palmetto sells both Manganese & Zinc.

the whole thing seemed simple to me until I dug a little too deep

Here's an image from 5 minutes into the video.

Zinc Phosphate is more of a grey plating - late 60s hood hinges and maybe other stuff
Manganese Phosphate is the black plating - bolts brackets
Black oxide is a different finish. It was oily and not very durable.

On some of the brackets that didn't plate well, I used the Eastwood Zinc Phosphate paint. It looks perfect. Great for hinges. If you need it a bit blacker, dust it with flat black from a distance. it will darken and still retain the sparkly look.

[dataway]

Yep, the Manganese Phosphate is typically used to imitate the black oxide ... which is impractical to do in a home shop environment ... and the Manganese Phosphate is probably superior to black oxide anyway.

I'll often use the zinc phosphate on parts that are supposed to be natural metal in color, but would otherwise rust immediately without paint or some kind of treatment.

[68ragtop]

I noticed the manganese phosphate appears to have sparkles in it too. Is this picture a fair assessment of what the two look like? I'm thinking I might try the manganese phosphate methods, then lightly paint the parts to look more like black oxide. maybe the best of both worlds that way? looks & protection?

So which is parkerizing? I thought somebody said that was the same as black oxide? Sorry to beat this to death, I just don't want to move on spreading bad information

I am thinking the Zinc would be great on the hood hinges? I have a really nice set of rust/pit free hinges I plan to use. They do have some grim & overspray on them so they need to be restored with some method, I just haven't gotten that far yet.

This picture is supposed to be manganese phosphate (left) next to black oxide (right).

[68bird400HO]

Black oxide is a different animal. The left is black (manganese) phosphate. The right looks like black zinc which you see on newer hardware but dont think they used on our cars back then. Dont confuse black zinc with zinc phosphate. Two completely different things. Zinc phosphate is like manganese phosphate except it is grey instead of black.

For natural parts, i just hit it with a good satin clear. I like VHT spray paint for this.

[68ragtop]

Just found out Scott is no longer in business with Palmetto Enterprises.

Hhmmmmmmm. Is there another source?

[dataway]

The bolt on the left .... the sparkles are salts that come out of solution as the parts dry. Parts should immediately be rinsed in oil after plating ... I think some people rinse in water then oil .... then I let them soak in oil over night at least. They look darker and shinier when properly handled after plating.

Bolt on right is ether oily black oxide or something else. Manganese Phosphate leaves a somewhat rougher finish than Black Oxide. You MUST rinse and oil the bolts thoroughly after cooking them or they will rust, turn gray and salty almost immediately.

Do a search on Manganese Phosphate and a bunch of sources will show up, mostly kits for firearms ...which will work fine for bolts. I'm sure Caswell also sells the kits.

[dataway]

In this post is a picture of some control arm bolts I treated with Manganese Phosphate, and then rinsed in WD40 and soaked in oil.

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...9&postcount=17

Here is a site that might offer some info that would be helpful.
http://www.nulltime.com/zincplating/index.html

[68ragtop]

Thanks again, part of what what was initially confusing me is some people were combining different minerals & chemicals to get to the same end process. What I realize now is people were basically making their own manganese phosphate, when others just buy it in a bottle. I would rather not make it myself and add another variable it it. Doesn't seem expensive anyway pre made, just need a source to get it. I will look into Caswell.

Also, about 6 months ago I bought a bunch of fasteners from AMK. I thought these were all black oxide, but now looking in the book I ordered from it says they are finish S2 which is referenced as "phosphate". I would assume that is manganese phosphate even though it does't say that in the book? Here's a picture of a few of the fasteners. They are very black. not oily at all. If I could get mine to turn out like this I would be ecstatic

Here I had examples right under my nose.

[dataway]

ESS-M3P20-A
(S2)
Zn Phosphate 72

S2 is a Zinc Phosphate and Oil treatment.

Found this paragraph in on a metal coating website which seems to indicate they can color zinc phosphate for a nice black finish.

____________________________

Zinc phosphating can extend the shelf life of your products in corrosive environments. By combining our zinc phosphate treatment with rust-inhibiting oils, wax, and other organic coatings, we can help your product withstand harsh conditions and up to 168 hours of continued salt spray. Jackson Tumble Finish has the ability to coat heavy, medium, and fine grain zinc phosphate, along with black phosphate and other color options.
__________________________________________________ ______________

Unfortunately at this point Caswell may be the only reliable source .... next time I buy some manganese or "Parkerizing" solution I'm going to try a gun smith supply store. Typical firearm Parkerizing is usually very close to black.

[68ragtop]

Originally Posted by dataway

ESS-M3P20-A
(S2)
Zn Phosphate 72

S2 is a Zinc Phosphate and Oil treatment.

Found this paragraph in on a metal coating website which seems to indicate they can color zinc phosphate for a nice black finish.

____________________________

Zinc phosphating can extend the shelf life of your products in corrosive environments. By combining our zinc phosphate treatment with rust-inhibiting oils, wax, and other organic coatings, we can help your product withstand harsh conditions and up to 168 hours of continued salt spray. Jackson Tumble Finish has the ability to coat heavy, medium, and fine grain zinc phosphate, along with black phosphate and other color options.
__________________________________________________ ______________

Unfortunately at this point Caswell may be the only reliable source .... next time I buy some manganese or "Parkerizing" solution I'm going to try a gun smith supply store. Typical firearm Parkerizing is usually very close to black.

Any chance the S2 callout could be coincidence? or do you think its zinc? they sure are dark, near black in color. Maybe I will call them to clarify.

Here's a screen shot from the parts book for finish references:

[68bird400HO]

Originally Posted by 68ragtop

Any chance the S2 callout could be coincidence? or do you think its zinc? they sure are dark, near black in color. Maybe I will call them to clarify.

Here's a screen shot from the parts book for finish references:

According to your chart, S2 is phosphate & oil (gray - black). Zinc phosphate is the gray, manganese phosphate is the black (aka black phosphate). The latter is correct for your hardware. As Dataway said, when you oil them, they don't look as dry. Depending on what is used for the "oil", it seems that it can evaporate out, esp if it is something like WD40 (which is really not a good protector). Then the protection won't be very good and they will rust. That is why I used Boeshield. That is supposed to penetrate and protect bare metal, so I figured it would be great for this.

[dataway]

What I was trying to point out is that some S2 zinc phosphate coatings my very well have been "colored" to be more black than zinc would normally be. Without coloring or other treatments manganese is going to be more black than zinc.

Black Oxide is more black than either ... but from what I have gathered it is beyond the capability of the average restorer to do "real" black oxide, which require some high temps and more exotic chemicals.

[68ragtop]

I only posted the chart because of the S2 meaning possibly being something other than what AMK listed them as. I didn't think they where something other than what I ordered, but I never say never to anything

I like everything we are all adding to this thread. Lots of good info.

Seeing palmetto is no longer an option, I see there are phosphate kits on ebay that are calling their product black phosphate. not sure how its better than manganese, unless they are adding something to it?

Were our cars originally supplied with black oxide? I used to think so but was reading somewhere that they where in fact manganese. But, that was on a ford website. While I think I have a plan of attack now, I still enjoy learning more about anything car related.

We used to use cheap black oxide self tapping ground screws at a shop I worked at in the early 90's. those things would rust so fast, they might have well had been bare steel

[dataway]

Heck, I'd give the "black phosphate" a try ... specially if they show some examples that look good. Although I have noticed some places sell a "cold" process phosphate treatment which I've heard is considerably inferior to the process of boiling your parts in a manganese solution.

Have you zinc plated anything yet? Once you do that you are lost to the world for a few weeks while you experiment with it, lots of fun.

[dataway]

I'm going to give something like this a try next.

http://www.calvan.com/html/jumbo_black_kits.html