[muscle_collector]

back in around 1989 or 1990 somewhere in the time span a guy in texas had a documented 428 HO 4 speed with 3:90 gear posi it was a gold car. no idea where it is today

[Pontiyak]

Originally Posted by muscle_collector

back in around 1989 or 1990 somewhere in the time span a guy in texas had a documented 428 HO 4 speed with 3:90 gear posi it was a gold car. no idea where it is today

I think in this older thread the owner's sone posted to say it was not 3.90 car it was a 3.55

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...=666794&page=2

[428ho4spd]

Originally Posted by 'ol Pinion head

MRGPHO, do you have any info, a sales bulletin, possibly, when pwr disc brakes became std equip on a '69 GP?

Here are two bulletins regarding manual and disc brakes for the '69 GP. Apparently there was some confusion very early on when placing orders. It appears that disc brakes were installed on all GP's prior to the bulletin dated Aug 8, 1968. After that, they were standard equipment only on the Model SJ or GP's ordered with Power Assist Group.

[north]

Originally Posted by 428ho4spd

Here are two bulletins regarding manual and disc brakes for the '69 GP. Apparently there was some confusion very early on when placing orders. It appears that disc brakes were installed on all GP's prior to the bulletin dated Aug 8, 1968. After that, they were standard equipment only on the Model SJ or GP's ordered with Power Assist Group.

Interesting and these two bulletins (the third indicating when PDB became standard later in the run is not included) show that there are three "eras" to 69 GP production as brakes go...

1...manual drum brakes were theoretically optional but all cars were built with PDB (manual drums were not actually orderable, sic)

2...on a special order basis a car could be now ordered with manual drums

3...PDB become officially standard equipment.

Unless a bulletin is discovered the best way to identify the date of #3 is by looking at PHS's and find the cutoff date for the base price increase that reflected the inclusion of PDB

[north]

I just looked at the handful I had and it looks like the change over was Jan 1st 69. On that date all Pontiac's had a $17 increase in base price when the up to then mandatory option of headrests ($16.85) were included in the base price.

However the GP price increased $89 instead of $17 on Jan 1st, if you deduct the $17 you are left with a $72 increase versus the $71.62 that was being charged for PDB. Further indication of this is that the SJ option price declined by exactly $71.62 on jan 1st as well.

Given what sounds like a real clusterf**k in those two memos I can easily imagine that someone said just make the f****** things standard and raise the price accordingly.

[north]

Originally Posted by MRGPHO

Excellent info "Trishield" except for the cylinder head. I have seen 3 HO 4-speed cars in my life and all three of them had head cast #48. There is conflicting info on this cylinder head - perhaps someone else can clarify. From what I have found the 48 head was used on the 350HO engine and had a combustion chamber volume of 65 cc's. I think these heads were used on the HO 4-speed cars to give a boost to the compression ratio. This was something that was covered in "Pontiac Enthusiast" magazine before the magazine was discontinued. I will have to dig it up - I have it somewhere. Just wanted anyone who reads this and has head cast 48 on their HO 4-speed car - that it is not necessarily incorrect - to my knowledge anyway!!! Would love to hear more from the Pontiac tribe??

I have never seen anything official contradicting what Rich says. All factory authorized documents state that all 428's (in GP's) used 62 heads. But I could see logically how the manual HO's could have followed the GTO pattern of 068 cams going with 48 heads, its possible (but not documented) that 48's were used on man trans HO's. Several clearly untouched never apart original engines would give some credence but given the very low production and the even lower survival rate I doubt there are many possible examples to verify

To me a clearer situation is the myth of lower cc 48 heads in 350 HO's, here there is again absolutely no proof of this, only one part number is listed for all 48 heads, no reference is made to a distinction in any document I am aware of. When people mention lower cc's in some 48 heads as proof there would have to be some proper professional measurement and then also in such circumstances the depth and width of the head casting would need measuring to insure that the lower cc's are not simply the result of repair shops surfacing heads to correct for warpage or to increase performance back in the hi-test gas days.

[69GP428HO4SP]

I can confirm that 428HO 4 speed engine code "WL" came with 48 code heads. I own one of the cars originally purchased by my dad and have just completed a restoration on another all original HO 4 speed, both have 48 heads.

[428ho4spd]

Originally Posted by north

I just looked at the handful I had and it looks like the change over was Jan 1st 69. On that date all Pontiac's had a $17 increase in base price when the up to then mandatory option of headrests ($16.85) were included in the base price.

However the GP price increased $89 instead of $17 on Jan 1st, if you deduct the $17 you are left with a $72 increase versus the $71.62 that was being charged for PDB. Further indication of this is that the SJ option price declined by exactly $71.62 on jan 1st as well.

Given what sounds like a real clusterf**k in those two memos I can easily imagine that someone said just make the f****** things standard and raise the price accordingly.

Nice detective work!

Lol... that makes sense!

[428ho4spd]

Originally Posted by 69GP428HO4SP

I can confirm that 428HO 4 speed engine code "WL" came with 48 code heads. I own one of the cars originally purchased by my dad and have just completed a restoration on another all original HO 4 speed, both have 48 heads.

Yep, same here... every one I've seen had 48's from the factory.

[1969GiPper]

Originally Posted by Dontiac

I couldn't remember what magazine I got it out of but I've had this clipping tacked to my wall for 20+ years. I do know the article was called "Das Boat" and it was a Royal Bobcat 428HO-4 spd-3:90 car.

The "Das Boat" article was printed in black and white in the March 1988 (Volume 6, Number 1) issue of Muscle Cars magazine. Cover of magazine shows a 1965 Olds 442. The article which starts on page 26 states that the car they tested with Cliff Gromer was a fully loaded (no a/c) Model J (not a SJ), 428 HO with a 4sp and 3:90 rear. They got the GP from Jim Wangers via Royal Pontiac who gave it a "Bobcat" treatment. It says that they were supposed to get an SJ but because of production problems with the manufacturer of the SJ fender emblems there were no SJ's available "early" in the 69 model year. The article states that Wangers contacted them in the early spring of 1968 asking if they were interested in testing a "full-bore Royal Bobcat Grand Prix" as soon as one was available. At the time the author of the article and Cliff Gromer (editor) were both working for a magazine that no longer exists today. At Westhampton Dragstrip their test car turned the 1/4 mile in 14.12 @ 101 mph. For what it's worth it says that the test car was a brilliant red with a unique white painted roof and Royal Bobcat emblems on each door just below the window.

['ol Pinion head]

Big Thanks to 428ho4spd and North for sorting out the PWR DISC brake issue on '69 GP's! Have been trying to figure out what was going on with avail of manual drum brakes on '69 Model J's since the early 90's.

-

[north]

btw the 428HO 4spd I had in the 80's had 48 heads but the engine had been rebuilt so I couldn't be sure if the heads were original (intake was not date matching). The car also had AC which was supposedly a no-no.

[Matt Meaney]

Originally Posted by north

btw the 428HO 4spd I had in the 80's had 48 heads but the engine had been rebuilt so I couldn't be sure if the heads were original (intake was not date matching). The car also had AC which was supposedly a no-no.

why would a/c have been a no-no on your 428HO 4spd car? was it on of the M21 3.90 cars?

I've always been under the impression that a/c was available on any engine/trans combo as long as the rear gear wasn't steeper than 3.55 (which would have come with an M-20). once you opted for the 3.90's, an M-21 was standard and no a/c available. this is due to the elevated cruise rpm which would compromise the compressor life.

[north]

Full sized pontiacs (including 69 GP) in the later 60's could not be ordered with a 428 HO if both AC and man trans were also present. In this case I suspect it was related to the 068 cam being considered non suitable for the drive train combo.

You either had to order the regular 428 or the HO with an automatic if you wanted AC

[428ho4spd]

Originally Posted by north

btw the 428HO 4spd I had in the 80's had 48 heads but the engine had been rebuilt so I couldn't be sure if the heads were original (intake was not date matching). The car also had AC which was supposedly a no-no.

Interesting! That would be the 2nd HO 4-speed car with a/c having been built against the rules. Any chance that VIN is still around?

[Matt Meaney]

Originally Posted by north

Full sized pontiacs (including 69 GP) in the later 60's could not be ordered with a 428 HO if both AC and man trans were also present. In this case I suspect it was related to the 068 cam being considered non suitable for the drive train combo.

You either had to order the regular 428 or the HO with an automatic if you wanted AC

learned something new, thanks.

[north]

Originally Posted by 428ho4spd

Interesting! That would be the 2nd HO 4-speed car with a/c having been built against the rules. Any chance that VIN is still around?

Long gone, I thought I had kept the PHS on it when I parted it but I guess it didn't survive the divorce "delousing" by my ex of all my stuff.

It was from Royal Pontiac in southern California (not Michigan). It was badly beaten and smashed so I threw the power train into a mintier 69 GP back in the 80's. It also had cruise with the 4speed, another no-no combination. Given the very very heavy option load it was probably for the owner of the dealership or something. I think it had every conceivable option except the 8 track which was not available at the start of production (It even had rear shoulder belts)

[joegpho]

North - perhaps PHS has records of what they sent you - or what they looked up and can send it again. I and the rest of the "HO stick-shift" crowd would love to see that invoice.

I had assumed that with our 3spd HO car having no brake or steering option on the invoice, but being built shortly after 1/1/69, that p/brakes with front discs (which are car did have) was made mandatory. This when compared to Steve Ames' former car, the limelight green one that had manual steering, manual drum brakes (and 14x6 SSIIs.) That car was built before 1/1/69, although I cannot recall the approximate date.

[joegpho]

I spoke with Wangers about his car - it was turned back in at the end of the year. Although - I recall him mentioning that his personal car was an automatic.
I have no other evidence to go by, but per Wangers Royal built/coverted about 6 4spds and 6 automatics.
Thanks for the information on the red car. Good to see that I'm not far off with my car's performance (14.28 @ 98.85 so far vs. 14.12 @ 101 - I'm trying to do that with 3.55s.) The Car and Driver test car was, or appeared to be, black - but the photographs are black and white. They got 13.9 out of theirs (sorry - it was also a Royal Bobcat) - again with CR 4spd and 3.90s. That car had black leather interior and PW. Car and Driver did not keep VINs on records for cars they tested - at least not back then. Believe me - I asked!

[north]

The "PHS" I received for that GP was from the 80's so it was from Pontiac itself (printed on fax paper and with the wholesale prices blocked out.

Those papers didn't survive my divorce. Seems crazy today but back then I parted the car even though it was rust free. I just wanted the power train for another GP I had that was like miles so-cal minty.

I had the original window sticker of that car, barely any room, last option was one line above the colors it had so much options. Actually just now I'm recalling it was one of those SJ's that wasn't shown on the PHS or the window sticker but it had all the options that made up the SJ and all the emblems.

My only beef with a 4speed GP was that your knuckles could get radio push button imprints if you weren't careful.