[1971WARBIRD]

one thing that is really scary is how do you know your car is real?i have magazines from back in the 70's where some VERY well known restorers talked about rebodying cars and well known engine builders talking about restamping blocks so they matched up for peoples show cars.unless you knew the car from when it was new,can you be sure?with pontiacs we are lucky to have phs to fall back on to trace numbers,but 30 years ago these were just used cars.
i've been around the block a few times,i don't hate anyone.there are just those i don't like as much.and those i would like to slap the snot out of.

[Rich Straub]

what are the young guys and gals going to do to out show and go the ricers if they cant hop up a lemans and make it at least have the look of a big doller car, i'll accept the clones just so i dont have to look at another civic with a superbird spoiler again. we need the young crowd to have interest in this hobby, and if there dream car is one that looks like mine but really isnt? WHO CARES??

[PonchoV8]

Originally Posted by green70judge

I can't keep quiet anymore... I hate the fact that people are cloning Judges. Simply put if you don't have one...then accept it. If you drive a lemans...then don't make it a GTO... it is what it is!!! I copied this from classicalpontiac...
in reference to a 70 lemans for sale...

I got this car in the summer with the intensions of turning it into a Judge and then got a Real Judge. It's a 2 door hardtop with a 350 motor and 350 trans. Car has ps, pb, ac, ralley wheels, dual exhaust, paint appears to be original. Car is orig. from Tennessee. I also have GTO fenders and wheel houses that go with the car. Drive it as is or make it a Judge.

I can't take this.....

Am I wrong to feel this way...

I like these guys. They put together a bunch of parts then don't use them. You can buy stuff already collected together. I'm a convertible guy. You almost never see a convertible clone.

I hate the ebayers that list a Judge that I waste my time clicking on to find it's a clone. I was looking because it was listed as a Judge--now I'm just angry. Say it's a clone.
One reason people clone is because of snobbery. I almost did. I'm not saying it's the only reason people do. I started with a conv LeMans because I liked the chrome bumper look and didn't care about the GTO. I'd wanted one for 10 yrs. Personally, I heard some snobbishness because I didn't have a GTO. I didn't want a GTO back then. I heard it from non-GTO owners too. I ended up buying a GTO hideaway nose because of some of this--which I never put on, thankfully. I even picked out a license plate to use with the car--IMNOGTO. Now that I've had many GTOs, I'm a little jaded to the plain hardtop GTO myself. I'm sure you've heard it before, but I'm not really partial to Judges. I'm more partial to convertibles. The Judge is rarer, but it's a hardtop. If I had a convertible Judge, I think I would feel the way some of you feel about just owning a hardtop Judge. Excited, but more because it's a rare convertible instead it being a Judge. It's a rare convertible first, to me. I appreciate the Judges.
I'm gonna color change a green '68 convert GTO automatic into a Turquoise 4 spd.

[PonchoV8]

I saw a 70 TA once that had it's orignal engine removed. It was for sale without the engine because the RA III was placed in a 70 Judge. What a waste in my opinion. It should've stayed with the TA.

Remind yourself who is doing these things people---it's car guys.

[GTOnly70]

Originally Posted by brianberes

Like the guy said above the only difference between a Judge and a GTO is an option checked that got you decals, a glove box emblem and front and rear spoilers.
Brian

Well, actually there is also the little matter of a Ram Air engine. Trivial, I suppose.

[gto4evr]

These clone arguments kill me. Is a 69 Lemans that’s had every single applicable GTO part replaced any less of a GTO than an original GTO that’s had all the same parts replaced during a resto? A little tiny number stamped on a little tiny plate. So the roof panel is guilty by association because it started life welded to a quarter panel that had an arrow head on it instead of a goat crest even though they come from the same GM die? When both cars have their quarters replaced, what makes them different after the fact? Same with the door panels. They are identical until you install the nameplate. Does that make the door panel any less of one because it had a different name plate on it once? I’m guilty of falling under the evil clone cloud. My 69 convertible is a clone. Here are a couple of reasons why:
1. The car was a great deal at the time. If you want a 69 GTO ragtop and don’t want to mortgage your house to buy one, you won’t be getting one any time soon.
2. I don’t like the 69 Lemans gigantic front bumper or watered down taillights.
3. The car started life as a 6 cylinder. When I got it, it had a ’64 389 that some moron welded the incorrect motor mount saddles in at an angle.
4. The car needed every piece of sheet metal replaced.
5. Since I’ve driven, sold, and parted many GTO’s over the years, I had every little piece of the required GTO items including the drivetrain from my 68 GTO I had just junked sitting in the garage.

Bottom line is that I like the looks of a 69 GTO better than a Lemans. Trying to go back to “original” to please the purists is a joke. It was a 6 cylinder car with the drivetrain long gone. I didn’t want a 69 convertible 6cyl car, I wanted a 69 ragtop with my screaming 400 4spd to have FUN driving in. Other than the vin, you can not show me a difference between my car and a “real” GTO. No bondo holes covering the Lemans emblems in the fenders because I used real GTO fenders on the car; no cobbing in the quarter panels due to changed marker lights, because full GTO quarter skins were replaced. EVERYTHING else that makes a Lemans into a GTO is a bolt on item. Forget finding your magic hidden vin stamp on the frame (this is a NY car and that rusted off LONG ago) What’s the point of chasing the other magic vins since you’d need to diassemble the car to find them. Do you think a GTO windshield frame was different than a Lemans?

I have NO intentions of ever selling my car. When I bought it I knew it would be the last 69 convertible I’d ever find that I could afford. If I ever did need to sell it, yes it would be given the title of “clone”. That’s one of the reasons I didn’t swap out vin tags (which I could have illegally swapped when I was offered the chance years back) I still get a little self-conscious at the shows when the finger-pointer-numbers guys run to look at my VIN before they even see the car. That’s because I let the general opinion of clones affect me when I shouldn’t. The head shaking and smart ass comments are real funny to me as they walk back to the parking lot and get into their Toyota Camry to drive back home after they showed me how dumb I am. Better yet are the guys like green70judge here who have ONE reason to hate clones: They feel it diminishes the rarity of their own cars. If you don’t like the ebay auctions with the clone listings, then don’t look at them. Do you get this upset because of the spam emails telling you about the male enhancement you require? Everyone's not as fortunate as you to have that car. That doesn't make you better than them, and it's a pretty uppity attitude to look down on someone building a clone they can afford rather than pay you $100K for the privilege. I’m with TJH on this one about driving them. My car is a daily driver. It goes to Walmart, to the movies, to the car shows, to work. If it gets scratched I don’t have to kill myself. If it gets rear ended at a light on the way to work, I’ll be pissed, but this car cost me quite a bit less than my F350 so who cares? Are you going to drive and enjoy YOUR beautiful numbers matching GTO Judge to all of those places every day?

I happen to have an original 69 Judge rusting away in my garage. I’ll get to it someday. Now ask me which car I enjoy owning more at the moment!

[69 RA GTO]

We can't go back in time and order a GTO like we want it, and with these Judge prices the average person cannot afford it anymore so what else are we suppost to do????

I am all for making a car the way YOU want it.. If you like the look of a Judge then make one and drive the hell out of it. All these whiners who are saying I don't like people cloning blah blah blah need to get a life and get into another hobby because it is only going to get worse and it is not worth having a stroke over. Court Dismissed!!!!!!!!

[mattgouras]

It's your car, do with it as you please. If you want a 3.55 rear in it, put it in. You want tri-power? Go for it. Want a different grill -- do it.
I think the line is crossed when such a car then is sold, say on e-bay, as a "Tri-power GTO" -- only to read further that it is a Tempest.

[70ra455]

I can't believe that someone gets so torqued out over someone doing to their car what they want to do with it. There MUST be more important things to talk about ...

[69cruizer]

I'm sorry that you guys hate fake boobs. Some of them these days feel very natural. They can really improve life and are great to be around. I am sorry that every one can't be genetically gifted to have a great rack..

[b-man]

Originally Posted by 69cruizer

I'm sorry that you guys hate fake boobs. Some of them these days feel very natural. They can really improve life and are great to be around. I am sorry that every one can't be genetically gifted to have a great rack..

Uh, what he said.........

[pack69gto]

b-man i could watch that rack on your sig all day,what were you guys talking about.lmao

[richmas5]

that looks like a rack in warwick blue ,and what a nice one

[gregsgtos2]

i think they were talking about fake boobs or clones,ah-who cares.i am following the bouncing boobs!

[pack69gto]

Well they dont look like clones, the way they bounce around,have to get mind out of cutter,lol

[pontiacpetey]

Now if I could find a pair of NOS for the wife.....

[The Boss]

I'd like to check out the tail panel on that one too.

[68addict]

Originally Posted by green70judge

these cases I can understand.... its the people who do things in order to pull the wool over peoples eyes...

This is the only reason I dislike clones, but for other reasons, its ok provided full disclosure is made.

[Andre]

I have seen some Judge clones that were basically stickers, spoiler etc like my ex 1969 GTO which (was a column shift car), and then I have seen some others that are done so well, that I would not have believed that they werent a clone until I was told different by the owner.

[gregsgtos2]

after MUCH further review,I THINK THOSE BOOBIES ARE CLONED!