[60sstuff]

I did a little research recently on the early 65 build GTO (the 1964 year built) and came away with a timeframe on the use of the "round rivets and rosette rivets" that secure the VIN tag.

Looking at unmolested Original cars from Sept. 64 thru Dec. 64 it seems the "rosette" rivet surfaced in late Dec. 64.

Below are five GTO VIN tags from different plants. Although I don't have a Sept. 64 tag to post, I do know of one which has the "round" rivets.

1st pic - 11A BAL
2nd pic - 11D KAN
3rd pic - 12A BF
4th pic - 12E PON
5th pic - 12E BAL

If anyone wants to contribute a photo of their "Original" 65 rivets to help verify this research, please do.

Thanks, Chris

[Keith Seymore]

I don't have a pic but my 09A (September of 1964) Pontiac built GTO has round rivets.

K

[dhcarguy]

Here is mine. 2nd. week of December '64 (12B)

[John V.]

Doesn't count for evidence, but the Olds F85 Assembly Guide shows a revision for the VIN plate rivets from 9422519 to 9423220.

The date of the revision was 10-9-64.

I'm reasonably certain that 9423220 is the rosette rivet.

Based on the evidence you are finding, I thought maybe the reason for the change was a Fed law, part of the effort to thwart rampant auto theft and that the law likely went into effect Jan 1, 1965.

As it turns out, GM was bowing to Fed and insurance industry pressure when they first made the switch from spot welded on VIN plates to riveted plates and subsequently began using the rosette or "rosehead" rivets in an effort to make them distinctive.

There was no law as yet regarding the use of these rivets as an anti-theft measure.

GM voluntarily agreed to the use of the rivets. The rosette rivets were chosen as a way to help detect swapped VIN plates but in the end did virtually nothing to discourage auto theft as the rivets were widely available on the black market.

It isn't clear why the rosette rivets weren't immediately used although apparently GM chose NOT to use rivets on Cadillac VIN plates at all, I'm not sure why or even whether they continued to spot weld them or attached them in some other way.

The elimination of vent windows was another measure designed to thwart theft.

The first Fed law regarding auto theft was a requirement to have an ignition lock and the dash mounted standardized VIN placement location.

Neither did much to slow thieves, especially pros. In 1960, 321,400 auto thefts were reported in the US, 92% recovered suggesting most were taken by joy-riders. By 1969, the no. exploded to 871,900 with only 84% recovered as more and more thefts were the work of pro thieves.

Info gleaned from this book:

https://www.amazon.com/Stealing-Cars.../dp/1421412977

I don't know what states have made it illegal to buy or sell rosette rivets. I know of an Illinois case where a seller was arrested at a swap meet and his conviction was upheld on appeal, so it is apparently illegal in that state. In NH, you can remove the VIN plate after getting permission from the authorities, but you cannot reattach it, you must then affix a State issued decal as a substitute, with the law specifically stating that such a substitution does NOT de-value the car (tell that to a prospective buyer of a collectible car!). I do know you can find the rosette rivets all over ebay. I also believe they were available from GM under p/n 9423220 at least until the p/n was superseded which I believe may have been around 1979.

From what I read in the law, it is NOT illegal under Fed law for a restorer to remove a VIN plate as long as it is done in accordance with applicable State law.

[Keith Seymore]

Thanks, John.

K

[60sstuff]

Keith, thanks for your 09A "round rivets".

dhcarguy, thanks for your 12B "round rivets".

So far it is still pointing to the last of Dec. 1964 that the change was made in the rivet style.
Plus the information that John V. supplied (thank you) seems to verify what has been shown in the above posts.

did, are you there? i think you have a Dec. 64 build GTO?? If so, what date and rivet style does your 65 have?

Thanks for the input, Chris.

[60sstuff]

Originally Posted by 60sstuff

did, are you there? i think you have a Dec. 64 build GTO?? If so, what date and rivet style does your 65 have?

I meant to say dld (Don).
What rivets came on your 65?

Does anyone have a 65 build month of "10" (Oct. of 1964)?
This is the time of the GM Strike (Sept. 25 thru Oct. 25 1964).

THX, Chris.

[xgoater]

My dad's '65 LeMans convertible with a build date of 1C (3rd week of January 1965) has ROUND rivets. This is a Fremont built car.

I have the PHS for the car and it is all factory original except for one repaint and maintenance items.

[dld]

Originally Posted by 60sstuff

I meant to say dld (Don).
What rivets came on your 65?

Does anyone have a 65 build month of "10" (Oct. of 1964)?
This is the time of the GM Strike (Sept. 25 thru Oct. 25 1964).

THX, Chris.

12c bal. car . car has rosette style Chris

[tripower]

Thanks Chris, pretty sure pic #2 is from my car. Good to the reason why they are the round type!